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Another example, recently, I have been watching a series on Netflix, and when you have a whole series available, it’s tempting to watch it an entire season in one sitting. I watched several episodes Friday night, and woke up Saturday morning with the impulse to watch several more. Before I could power up my laptop, I heard the voice, “it’s a good show, there’s nothing really wrong with it, but why don’t you read some scriptures first? The show will still be there when you finish.” I thought, “Man, I really want to watch this show now, but I guess I could read a chapter first.” After I finished reading, I heard the voice, “yeah, you could watch the show, but why don’t you read up a little on that new book you got for work.” I thought, “I can do that, the show will still be there.” So, I did, and as I was reading my wife woke up and invited me to go running. I heard the voice, “Go.” So I did.
Had I been mid episode when she invited me to go running, I probably wouldn’t have.
All three times that I “heard the voice”, it was prompting me to do good things. Study, work out, spend time with my wife, and ultimately exercise some self control over a bad habit.
Why don’t I just call that voice my own common sense? I do. I just choose to believe that it comes from God and it is inspiring to think that He uses it as a medium to communicate with me in my otherwise mundane daily affairs.
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MockingJay wrote:Cadence wrote:This kind of blather supports the atheist view. When the only thing that god seems to do could just as easily be a coincidence, we need to pick the most plausible. Thus the need for god becomes moot. Did an all powerful being intervene in my nautical adventures or did I happen upon a vessel that meet my desires. Seems rather obvious.
This is how I feel most of the time, but then something will happen that’s so far beyond the coincidental, that I don’t know how to reconcile it and my confusion starts again.
Recently, my God has sort of been the laws of physics that govern the universe. I believe that the power of God is involved there. But now, even the laws of physics that I have found so comforting have come into question (which I do find fascinating, BTW), so all I seem to be learning is that I don’t know anything.
For a while, post FC, I thought that the “God of the lost car keys” was a kind of neural physiological process that helped us remember or sense where the keys were (or which store had the best boat) because I saw the same things happening with believers and non-believers alike. Now, I’m leaning a little bit to there being some kind spiritual power there that we can tap into, and maybe this is guided by a God. Even non-believers believe in something, and maybe that’s enough. Maybe someday, someone will come up with the right formula to explain it, or maybe God will allow some human to figure it out. I know this doesn’t make much sense as I write it out, but like M&G said, these thoughts sometimes whirl in my head. The good thing is that now I can let them whirl without fear or guilt. It’s very liberating.
Welcome to the World Pantheist movementCadence wrote:Unknown wrote:
So, more recently I’ve just been asking to hear the Spirit. Since I believe that good impressions come from God, I am ok with the idea that he intervenes on a daily basis in seemingly trivial matters.For example, I love pizza. The other day I went to buy a slice, and as I was waiting in line, I felt an impression saying, “don’t buy any pizza today.” I had a clear choice, ignore it, or obey it. I obeyed it, and I felt good about it and built some momentum to exercise more self control and had a productive day.
Many would not frame this as a spiritual experience, and that’s ok, but I choose to because the idea that I can commune with God daily inspires me.
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I use to live exactly that way. It worked for a long time, until one day it lead me down a path that caused terrible consequences.Now it is near impossible to trust that voice in my head. Sometimes I wish I could.
Me too, Cadence, with a bad outcome as well. What I was doing was not “bad” – it was a very good thing. I felt very strongly that it was the right thing to do, guided by that inner voice. It’s why I am where I am today – much less of a believer in that voice and quite frankly not the same person I used to be – not all of which is necessarily for the better (more cynical, etc.). I, too wish I could trust it (as in “trust your feelings, Luke). Alas, I cannot.
I had an interesting experience on Sunday while attending a ward in Utah. A woman in Sunday School talked about an experience praying to find her keys after four days of not being about to find them, and she ended her story with the following statement, to the best of my memory:
Quote:“I know it’s a little thing that doesn’t mean anything to others, but it helps me remember that God will help me when I face much bigger challenges. I tend to get stressed out and forget how much I have appreciated the help when I needed it most.”
I think there is something powerful and profound in that – particularly the idea that some people really need and actually are blessed by seeing blessings in things others see as silly or even ridiculous.
Who am I to say she wasn’t right – and, more importantly, why would I feel the need to insist that she wasn’t? When I do that, am I really any different than those who insist everyone can have that sort of experience if only they are faithful enough? Aren’t both positions exclusive and dismissive in nature?
I completely agree. Old-Timer wrote:I had an interesting experience on Sunday while attending a ward in Utah.
A woman in Sunday School talked about an experience praying to find her keys after four days of not being about to find them, and she ended her story with the following statement, to the best of my memory:
Quote:“I know it’s a little thing that doesn’t mean anything to others, but it helps me remember that God will help me when I face much bigger challenges. I tend to get stressed out and forget how much I have appreciated the help when I needed it most.”
I think there is something powerful and profound in that – particularly the idea that some people really need and actually are blessed by seeing blessings in things others see as silly or even ridiculous.
Who am I to say she wasn’t right – and, more importantly, why would I feel the need to insist that she wasn’t? When I do that, am I really any different than those who insist everyone can have that sort of experience if only they are faithful enough? Aren’t both positions exclusive and dismissive in nature?
I don’t disagree, Ray, but God’s apparent failure to help in the bigger things is why I am where I am. Were that not the case, I would not have had a crisis of faith. From what I read here, I am not unusual.
I understand and agree completely, DJ. I get that – but I also know it means a lot to some people and helps them tremendously. That’s really all I’m saying – that I can’t bring myself to dismiss or ridicule statements like hers.
DarkJedi wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I had an interesting experience on Sunday while attending a ward in Utah.
A woman in Sunday School talked about an experience praying to find her keys after four days of not being about to find them, and she ended her story with the following statement, to the best of my memory:
Quote:“I know it’s a little thing that doesn’t mean anything to others, but it helps me remember that God will help me when I face much bigger challenges. I tend to get stressed out and forget how much I have appreciated the help when I needed it most.”
I think there is something powerful and profound in that – particularly the idea that some people really need and actually are blessed by seeing blessings in things others see as silly or even ridiculous.
Who am I to say she wasn’t right – and, more importantly, why would I feel the need to insist that she wasn’t? When I do that, am I really any different than those who insist everyone can have that sort of experience if only they are faithful enough? Aren’t both positions exclusive and dismissive in nature?
I don’t disagree, Ray, but God’s apparent failure to help in the bigger things is why I am where I am. Were that not the case, I would not have had a crisis of faith. From what I read here, I am not unusual.
Thank-you DJ for saying this. I have felt the same way. In “A Grief Observed”, CS Lewis, after losing his wife of only a few years, wrote:
“Not that I am (I think) in much danger of ceasing to believe in God. The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about Him. The conclusion I dread is not ‘So there’s no God after all,’ but ‘So this is what God’s really like. Deceive yourself no longer.”
Right or wrong, that is the danger I feel when I hear stories like about God helping somebody find a boat – and probably why my desire is to dismiss them. A friend’s daughter recently hung herself in their basement. She was 17 years old. Her parents found her. Doesn’t it point to some terrible conclusions about God? That He will assist in boat finding and yet not prompt somebody to come and help a girl who will commit suicide? Or could not He has at least caused her to be killed in a car accident a few days prior to suicide, if He knew she was going to do it anyways? At least spare the effects on the family of the suicide?
I don’t know what you went through – but I am sure it was awful. I know what it took to bring me to my faith crisis – and for me, I would never bring a child into the world as a result. The awful hell they might go through I just can never imagine the joys of life being worth the risk. If I had known what the past 10 years would have been like, I’d never have accepted treatment for the disease diagnosed in me. I guess I am fortunate though. I still think that most of the time, God is good and kind. I truly have pity for the people which have passed through so much suffering as to drive even that hope out of their souls. I often wonder what God’s answer will be when I see Him. This is a short – almost stupid – clip – but I get a great deal of comfort out of it. When the man with the warped hand looks up into Jesus’ eyes, as if to say, “You are healing my hand, but what about healing this emotional destruction, social isolation, loneliness, and despair that having only 1 hand has caused in me. And when Jesus looks at him. Something about that gaze. I know it’s acting, but still – something about it. I think that will be my answer for why. And I think it will be good enough at that time. I can still see Jesus and believe that there is a good reason for why. Or maybe not a good reason – but at least not a bad ‘I did this to you on purpose’, or ‘I don’t care that this happened to you’ reason.
These are the questions at the heart of my faith crisis. The qoutes in my signature line have been helpful to me. Quote:“It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness.” C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
“I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene” Heber13
The other day I was in a meeting with my bishop who mentioned praying when he’d lost his car keys only to open his eyes to find them. Little did he know the idea of the “car-key God” is troubling to me. I don’t buy much into the “tender mercies” lessons, either. I’m appreciative and grateful when I have such “tender mercies” but I don’t feel like I see them the way other members do–as the Lord intervening directly in my life as a kind of reconciliation for the struggles I’m having. I don’t know. I’m grateful for blessings, regardless. Maybe I’m wrong about it and my fellow ward members do have the right idea about it. But I struggle with the concept and logically, the idea of a God favoring some people so much over others doesn’t sit well with me. That being said, close family members have had miraculous spiritual experiences of what they believe was divine intervention that can’t really be explained by logic. When I accept the paradigm that God doesn’t intervene, I would have to excuse away their experiences, which in some cases, I just can’t do. And so it gets complicated. Not to mention, when the going gets tough, I still pray to God for help. And sometimes I do feel like my life is being guided. Alas, the paradox continues.
I don’t know the answer. But while I think some find comfort in the idea of God intervening all the time, once the shelf breaks for some and they start asking why God doesn’t intervene in many horrific scenarios, it can be spiritually devastating—not to mention those silently suffering in the back of the church classroom going through very testing trials when people go on about their little divine interventions. So I don’t think the culture at church (at least mine) that takes these kinds of interventions for granted is so positive for members but maybe I’m wrong.
Prayer has been on my mind a lot lately. I pray many times in the day and I feel God’s presence in my life. I feel like He’s given me strength that on my own I wouldn’t have. But I also recognize the incredible suffering endured by life on this planet. As it’s been asked many times why does God help someone find their keys and ignore the cries of a suffering child? I wonder if God does intervene but in ways that we can’t see. For example, sending us strength to endure. Maybe there are angels surrounding us to help but they don’t take the suffering away, they just help us to somehow survive it and later to heal? I have to believe for my own sanity that God is aware and somehow He will in the end make it clear and heal us. I have a more peaceful relationship with God when I don’t expect He do things when I needed Him, despite some things I think I misunderstood from church teachings about having enough faith to move mountains. And I have had some very low times when I couldn’t go on by myself…I expected those were the times I would feel His help. I got through my bad times, so … I guess I didn’t need it after all. In other words, I don’t know what I really need or how much I can really endure, so I do better not expecting God when I think I need Him. I do better when I believe He is there, but trust He doesn’t need to intervene. I believe God helps those who help themselves. So I will plead for His help, and stand and act as if it is up to me whether He helps or not.
I have had years of prayers unanswered (or I missed the answers). I have had recent prayers answered. I choose to believe that. I won’t share the details, but I find it uplifting to me and my family who all prayed and fasted on my behalf and were blessed.
I’ll be honest, it hurts when I hear the “boat” type statements by others, and wonder why I spent nights alone in my hell. But that has helped me to learn to manage expectations and not judge others, but simply trust God even if I can’t explain it or predict it.
It is just too unrealistic to compare circumstances. One person’s boat could be another person’s seagulls, could be another person’s Gethsemane.
Quote:One person’s boat could be another person’s seagulls, could be another person’s Gethsemane.
That might be the most profound thing I’ve ever read. Seriously.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:One person’s boat could be another person’s seagulls, could be another person’s Gethsemane.
That might be the most profound thing I’ve ever read. Seriously.
Beautiful and the most important thing to remember.
:clap: mercyngrace wrote:
None of my powerful spiritual experiences, NONE, have involved God removing my burden (however large or small). All of them were powerful, paradigm shifting, realizations about why God would not remove it.
We finished reading the Book of Mormon recently for my Pathways class. There was intellectual stuff, there was a lot of stuff I tuned out of, there wre some uncomfortable moments…
But the times when I felt something – something made the most sense for me where these:
- Studying the tree in Lehi’s dream and how it represents “the love of God” or Charity. NOTE: I used to HATE Lehi’s dream in terms of how I rank BoM stories – but now I get the tree…
- The connection I got when equating the Alma 32 tree to building a Charity tree in our own lives. KEY TAKEAWAYS: 1. Don’t expect the steps you take in the beginning to match the steps you take later on in the process (sapling needs vs adult tree needs) 2. Building a Charity tree will take a long time – 5-20 years at least, so don’t expect it overnight and don’t expect to see measurable growth overnight. The tree sustains growth over time with proper maintenance.
- Brother of Jared/Jesus Christ Dialog: What is the problem, why is it a problem, what are some options to fix it, and most importantly for me (how can I (God) help you (person) fix it?
- Calling of the 3 Nephites (out of the 12): Jesus Christ sat down with each disciple and asked them more or less “What do you desire of me?”
A lot of the time I feel confused and almost paralyzed by indecision about what I believe and what to do about what I may no longer believe.
I take comfort from this site:
a) Others have and do feel similarly – there is a model for this known as Fowler’s Stage 4.
b) I don’t have to make any choices now – in fact, it is recommended that I not make choices in haste.
c) There may be room for me in the tent. I may need to bring a tent extension along with my good attitude if I decide to stay in the tent.
When I pray about how I feel, it seems to alternate with waves of futility (God is not there/does not care about this) and waves of hope (I NEED God to care because it is important to me).
However, what brings me the most peace right now is the sense that in this process my actions are the catalyst. I need to decide how God influences my life and go from there. A stupid example I guess is: If God is going to strike me with lightening bolts, I need to have set it up so that I can attract the most bolts possible and grounded them as safely as I can.
I guess this part of this thread resonated with me because while at first I half-asked God if he would remove this Stage 4 angst from me, I realize that He cannot and He will not – but maybe when I get out of it on the other side, I will see His hand in it (or not) and understand that.
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