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the church’s genealogy website, familysearch.org, notes over 20 of JS’s marriages, though temple records have him sealed to over 50. A bunch were added after his death. here is the link to JS’s genealogy page , http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167&lds=0®ion=-1®ionfriendly=&frompage=99 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167&lds=0®ion=-1®ionfriendly=&frompage=99 I don’t think this thread meets the requested formatting. Aren’t we supposed to have book and media titles as the thread titles? Old-Timer wrote:I am moving this thread to the Books and Media section, since the only option is a comparison of sources that make competing claims. I also changed the title to reflect the comparison better.
Tom, Ray moved it here and chose the title.
Go figure. Weird. That’s IMHO of course. 
Tom, I moved it here because I expected it to be strictly a sharing of passages from books. Honestly, I didn’t know of any other place for the type of thread I figured it would become – since it really isn’t much of a “discussion”, as I’m sure you’ve noticed. I figured I had two choices: move it here or delete it. I chose to move it here. The Nauvoo temple book which was used to record sealings even before the temple was finished, records Joseph Smith’s sealings to many sisters of the Church. Since it is original, timely and in the Church’s possession, it’s an evidence that presses very close to flat-out proof. Journals such as Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, William Clayton and Willard Richards kept noted sealings in cipher, either a modified masonic cypher or in shorthand (not Gregg’s, but Taylor). McLellin, too, now that we have more of his collection in hand. A LOT of evidence in favor of JS polygamy (and polyandry) exists.
HiJolly
I have a lot to respond to–please be patient with me. Mister Curie,
I dug up some more info on William Law. Besides associating closely with the despicable Higbees, he apparently was in with some Fosters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints Could these be the same Fosters that apparently ran a brothel next to the temple in Nauvoo, with John C. Bennett?
http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_book/John_C._Bennett/Brothel_at_Nauvoo If so, I think it’s fair to throw out Law’s testimony as garbage.
Just fwiw, I don’t. There are two sides to this story, and I’m leaning quite to the “Joseph did practice polygamy” side. But it doesn’t matter much to me today…. 
allquieton wrote:I have a lot to respond to–please be patient with me.
Mister Curie,
I dug up some more info on William Law. Besides associating closely with the despicable Higbees, he apparently was in with some Fosters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints Could these be the same Fosters that apparently ran a brothel next to the temple in Nauvoo, with John C. Bennett?
http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_book/John_C._Bennett/Brothel_at_Nauvoo If so, I think it’s fair to throw out Law’s testimony as garbage.
I do not know if these are the same Fosters. However, I think it should be obvious from William Law’s testimony that he is condemning plural marriage. Unlike Bennett, who tried to justify his own promiscuity by implicating JS, Law is outright condeming such practices.
I keep losing my post. 
If we throw out William Law for who he hung out with we would have to throw out Joseph for the same reason.
Why would William go to the trouble of filing a lawsuit against Joseph for adultery and unlawful cohabitation if it wasn’t true? Why go to all that trouble? Everything else written in the Nauvoo Expositor can be proven true. Why lie about the one thing?
I don’t have all the answers regarding Law. But: 1. The Higbees did confess to lying about Joseph. So did Bennett.
2. Bennett kept lying (indisputably) about Joseph as long as he lived. He was a sworn enemy of JS.
3. Bennett and the Higbees and apparently the Fosters are all close associates. Law is tied in with the Higbees and the Fosters.
4. Joseph told the truth about the Higbees and Bennett. So did others. Their stories all agreed with the confessions. (So why doubt the confessions?)
5. When you say Joseph was lying to cover his own wickedness, you are saying known liars are telling the truth–about something they confessed to lying about. Who sided with JS on the polygamy denial that is a known liar?. And who admitted to lying about that particular thing?
If JS had started saying things that aligned with lies that Bennett and the Higbees had confessed to I wouldn’t trust it either.
I read an article where Law kept saying he had detectives or spies and that’s how he knew what JS was up to. I wonder if these detectives weren’t enemies of JS, poisoning Law against him. As for Law’s wife, I guess it’s harder to explain her accusations, but at the same time it’s not hard to think of scenarios where she might lie. I’ll keep reading.
I have to wonder why Joseph collected so many enemies and why he (and the church) was accused of “spiritual wifeism” from nearly the inception. Why were so many of his closest associates determined that he was a fallen prophet? Why were so many liars, adulterers, thieves and deceivers attracted to the church? Joseph claimed that God told him who he could trust. Why wasn’t he warned about the dozens of “apostates” that he was so close to?
For everyones reading pleasure…Here is a letter from some members of the church soon after Joseph and Hyrum were killed. They had issues with some of the doctrines taught-same as the ones mentioned in the Nauvoo Expositor. To my knowledge they were not polygamists nor “enemies” of Joseph. They believed he was teaching plurality of wives.
Quote:Nauvoo, Illinois
July 22, 1844.
My Dear Father and Mother:
I supposed you received our letter and was somewhat prepared, when you heard of the dreadful murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith in Carthage jail. Little did we think that an event like that would ever transpire. The Church believed that he would be acquitted as he had been on former occasions, and Joseph prophesied in the last Neighbor [LDS newspaper] that was published before his death that they would come off victorious over them all, as sure as there was a God in Israel. Joseph also prophesied on the stand a year ago last conference that he could not be killed within five years from that time: that they could not kill him till the Temple would be completed, for that he had received an unconditional promise from the Almighty concerning his days, and he set Earth and Hell at defiance; and then said, putting his hand on his head, they never could kill his Child. But now that he is killed some of the Church say that he said: unless he gave himself up. My husband was there at the time and says there was not conditions whatever, and many others testify to the same thing.
I suppose you have heard from Mr. Haven and Martha before this and have learned their mind concerning Joseph and Hyrum, but I cannot help believing that had they been innocent, that the Lord would not have suffered them to fall by the hands of wicked murderers. I believe they would have been living men to-day, had they been willing for others to enjoy the same liberties they wish for themselves.
The governor visited Nauvoo the day that Joseph and Hyrum were killed and made a speech. He told the people of Nauvoo the burning of that press was arbitrary, unlawful, unconstitutional, and that they had hurt themselves more than ten presses could have injured them in ten years.
The governor was met on his return to Carthage by a messenger informing him of the assassination. Many of the Mormons blame the governor for not bringing them with him and others do not. I think it looks strange his leaving a guard of only eight men with them and taking so many with himself. I have no doubt however but he was afraid of his own life or he would not have taken the number of men he did with him. I heard there were three hundred. The governor did not dare to stop in Carthage that night, and men, women, and children fled from there. I believe there was only three or four men that stopped in the place that night. I think the people of Carthage so far have suffered more than the Mormons. Who the vile murderers were I suppose never will be known till the day when all flesh shall stand before God to answer for the deeds done in the body. Many of the Mormons lay it on the Missourians, others to the apostates, as they call them. If it is apostasy from Mormonism to come out against the doctrines of more Gods than one, more wives than one, and many other damnable heresies that they have taught, I hope and pray that I and all the rest of the Church may become apostates.
Mr. Haven told me last spring before I was married that those doctrines tried his faith very much till he heard Hyrum Smith explain them and now or then he thought it was right. But a few weeks before the murder Hyrum denied that Joseph had the revelation concerning it but said that it referred to ancient times; and it was published in the Neighbor. After I saw it I said to Mr. Haven: “What do you think of that? Is it not a plain contradiction to what you told me? What do you think of it?” He said that he supposed Hyrum saw what a disturbance it was making and thought he would say it on account of their being much excitement.
When the news reached the governor of the destruction of the press and of the trouble in Nauvoo, he hastened here as fast as possible just in time to save an attack upon the city of Nauvoo. Writs were then issued for the Smith’s and others to bring them before the proper authorities for trial. When they were taken to Carthage, it was with difficulty the governor saved their lives. The repeated outrageous laws they had made, made the inhabitants hate the very sight of them. One example: whoever was heard speaking against the city council, charter, or ordinances should be fined five hundred dollars…
Dear Mother: I have seen some sorrowful days since I left you and some happy ones. But I can tell you it is a sorrowful time here at present. Those that stood up for Joseph before his death are getting divided among themselves.
I have since learned that it was a mistake concerning the governor leaving only eight men with Joseph, but that he left a large company. Willard Richards and John Taylor were in jail with them.
August 9: Yesterday I attended a conference in Nauvoo. I suppose Martha will give you the particulars of it. The twelve were appointed to take charge of all the concerns of the Church both spiritual and temporal. Brigham Young said that if he had been here, he wouldn’t have consented to give Joseph up and he would be damned if he would give himself up to the law of the land. He would see them all in hell first; the Church, and then he said he would see all Creation in Hell before he would. These statements are correct, and they needn’t any attempt to deny them. If they do, they are ignorant of the matter or they are willful liars…
Sarah Scott
At my wife’s request I write a few words…Joseph and Hyrum Smith are murdered; Samuel is dead and buried. The Smiths are all gone the way of all the earth except William, and why all this murder and death in the Smith family? I believe it is because they taught the people of God to transgress His holy laws as did the sons of Eli of old;…
You will likely hear a great deal about Joseph’s innocence such as: “I go like a lamb to the slaughter, and if I die, I die an innocent man.” All these statements, I believe, are false and got up for the purpose of reconciling the minds of the Church. I believe they had not the least idea that they were going to be murdered. Hyrum said the last time I heard him preach, which was only a few days before he and Joseph were taken to Carthage, that their enemies could not kill brother Joseph, for he had a great work to accomplish yet. There was also considerable said in Carthage which proves beyond dispute that they did not expect death. They blame the apostates, as they term them, with being accessory to the murder of the Smiths. This is not the case: the Laws and Fosters were not in the state at the time the murder was committed, and if they had been here, they would have been the last to stain their hands with human blood!
Remember me to all your family in the kindest manner…
Yours respectfully,
Isaac Scott
[Cultures in Conflict: A Documentary History of the Mormon War in Illinois, John E. Hallwas and Roger D. Launius, pages 256-259.]
MWallace57, I don’t think you understand where I’m coming from. I don’t need JS to be perfect, or financially gifted, or the stick pulling champion of New York. I don’t need him to be anything.
But based on the evidence, I don’t think he was a polygamist. And so I say it. That’s pretty much it. I can’t say I have zero emotional attachment to the idea. It’s true, I like the idea, but not enough I think to interfere with my judgment. I think I’m pretty realistic. If it is proved he was polygamist, I can accept that.
Mostly everyone disagrees with the idea that I accept. But also, mostly (with a few exceptions) they have only heard one side of the story and have an entire framework built around JS polygamy.
I guess the book info didn’t ever make it into the new thread. Thanks for pointing it out Tom. Joseph Smith Fought Polygamyby Richard and Pamela Price Also they have a website with the entire content of the book on it:
I do like to debate this issue, but for now I’m tapping out before this thread becomes my life’s work. Sorry if I didn’t respond to you–I just don’t have the time and energy right now to reply to each one of your comments. Anyhow, I think other researchers have already addressed, better than I am able to, most of the questions coming up. I did read every post on this thread, and I have learned a lot. Feel free to send me anything to read/consider on the matter.
(Thanks for posting the letter Just Me–it was in fact a reading pleasure. HiJolly, I’m still trying to find out more about this Nauvoo Temple book, but not having much luck–maybe you could point me in the right direction…)
I’m sure I will be around. This seems like a very interesting and helpful crowd. It’s a relief to find a community that, although they might disagree with the Church on certain matters, are still pro-LDS.
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