- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Featherina wrote:
(Question for all:)
What do you do to keep the passionate spirit alive?Exactly what my religion taught me to…read and pray always…and then follow the spirit.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:Featherina wrote:(Question for all:)
What do you do to keep the passionate spirit alive?
Exactly what my religion taught me to…read and pray always…and then follow the spirit.
i missed Featherina’s question the first time around.I think there are three kinds of energy respecting the church:
1. Comfort through conformity. To ‘know’ the church is true and that everything is as it should be is very comforting. “When I obey, I’ll be happy all day” is something we taught our kids with tongue firmly in cheek, but it is also taught prevalently in primary as well. It’s very comforting to know that “if we keep the commandments, we’ll prosper in the land”, as the book of mormon says so many times. There’s also the 8+2=10 rule.
Doctrine & Covenants 82:10 wrote:I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
Doctrine & Covenants 130:20-21 wrote:There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
This is the deterministic security that the church gives us — if we believe, have faith and no doubts, shun apostate thinking, and obey all commandments with perfection, everything will work out for us: we’ll be happy, rich, and prosperous. And if you doubt this in the least, you’ll be like peter, falling into the water.After all, it’s either all true, or the biggest fraud in history…which brings us to the second kind of energy:
2. It’s not true. How many people stay with the church emotionally, when they come to the conclusion that the fundamental claims and promises of the church in this life are literally not true? Because of the dualistic proposition, “It’s either exactly as Joseph Smith Said it was, or it’s a big fraud”, buy into this statement as in, “It’s a big fraud”. I’m finding that the via negative – the way of negativity, is very addictive, and leads to a lot of unhappiness with the church. The relief to the via negativa is to leave, and once left, many, in fact, most, probably are much happier than they are in the state of cognitive dissonance.
There is so much negative energy in the state of feeling that the church is not true and trying to make it work because of family and culture. I’m getting to the point that this negative energy is addictive, is enticing, and wastes a phenomenal amount of time and energy. If I am faced with a choice that either the church is all true or all false, then once I learn that it’s not ‘all true’, I would quickly get to ‘all false’. And while I’m going to each meeting with family, or having to go through ritual, I’m going to be in pain every time I hear more BS about the church.
The via negativa is NOT the way to Stay LDS. But for those of us who have rationally made the conclusion that it is not ‘all true’, what other alternative is there?
3. The Way of the Spirit. That sounds arrogant. You all know I’m getting to “Middle Way”, because that’s my OCD. but here is the reality — after listening to MormonMatters 98-99:
Middle Way Mormonism and WomenI felt nothing but authenticity as Claudia Bushman expressed her appreciation for what the church had done for her in her life.
There are three criticisms we can have of the church:
1. That the foundational truth claims are not what the church advertises and teaches.
2. That the leaders are not any more inspired than the rest of us, and
3. Sometimes the church practices and teaches things that are not only untrue, but also harmful.
With respect to criticism 1 — yup. got it. Where I have a problem is the all-or-nothing attitude frequently taught. But if we set that aside, recognizing that fantastic claims tend to be the original premises of ALL religions, then, let’s just accept that there are fantastic claims, and recognize that pious fraud sometimes is ‘god’s’ method for getting our attention. you may not like this idea, but I’m through with worrying about fantastic claims — they’re all BS and I’m good with that.
With respect to criticism 2 — most leaders have been pretty honest about that, some are not. Most of the time the leaders are simply allowing and encouraging the saints to think that their leaders are always inspired, and they kind of passively allow the myth to go on. Given that they hold the ‘keys’ of priesthoood, I’m willing to accept that they are leaders, and we should take what they say seriously, but not as gospel. So, my personal take is that criticism 2 is what I make of it. I don’t embue them with infallibility and neither should anyone else.
With respect to criticism 3 — there are times when BS is benign, and other times when it is harmful. I can live with teaching mythology as long as it gets to a normative lesson that helps us be better people. But when the myth impells us to hate gays, discredit women, and force a type of impractical moral guilt on teenagers doing natural things like masturbating, then the BS is NOT benign, and must be effectively opposed. Effective opposition isn’t always straight forward, because the moment the church sees you in opposition, then you are marginalized and unable to effectively prevent the bad teachings from getting to the children who need to be protected. NO easy answer here.
The point is that if we set aside the BS origins of the church accepting them as what they are without apology, if we recognize that we’re all part of one spirit, and if we voice opposition at the right time and place, there is a lot of energy we can gain from being involved, active and engaged.
Quote:Wayfarer wrote: “This is the deterministic security that the church gives us — if we believe, have faith and no doubts, shun apostate thinking, and obey all commandments with perfection, everything will work out for us: we’ll be happy, rich, and prosperous. And if you doubt this in the least, you’ll be like peter, falling into the water.
After all, it’s either all true, or the biggest fraud in history…which brings us to the second kind of energy:
2. It’s not true. How many people stay with the church emotionally, when they come to the conclusion that the fundamental claims and promises of the church in this life are literally not true? Because of the dualistic proposition, “It’s either exactly as Joseph Smith Said it was, or it’s a big fraud”, buy into this statement as in, “It’s a big fraud”. I’m finding that the via negative – the way of negativity, is very addictive, and leads to a lot of unhappiness with the church. The relief to the via negativa is to leave, and once left, many, in fact, most, probably are much happier than they are in the state of cognitive dissonance.
There is so much negative energy in the state of feeling that the church is not true and trying to make it work because of family and culture. I’m getting to the point that this negative energy is addictive, is enticing, and wastes a phenomenal amount of time and energy. If I am faced with a choice that either the church is all true or all false, then once I learn that it’s not ‘all true’, I would quickly get to ‘all false’. And while I’m going to each meeting with family, or having to go through ritual, I’m going to be in pain every time I hear more BS about the church.
The via negativa is NOT the way to Stay LDS. But for those of us who have rationally made the conclusion that it is not ‘all true’, what other alternative is there?”
So very interesting you wrote this. Thank you. There is a history behind this to help understand why we tend to choose 1 or 2 and it is….
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201112/black-and-white-thinking-splitting-is-both-borderline-and-narciss ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201112/black-and-white-thinking-splitting-is-both-borderline-and-narciss Quote:“Splitting, or all-or-nothing-thinking, has always been considered a borderline trait. But like emptiness, it commonly occurs in people with narcissistic personality disorder as well.
Splitting is a cognitive distortion and defense mechanism–a totally unconscious way BPs and NPs make sense of the world. It causes mood swings and contributes to arguments, criticism, and blame.For example: Family members are seen as all good or evil; idealized and devalued. BPs and NPs put them on a pedestal (often at the beginning of the relationship) and knock them right off of it when the new partner invariably disapoints.
People with BPD (and sometimes the “vulnerable” type of NPD) see themselves as good or evil, idealized or devalued depending upon how they feel that day. When they see themselves as all bad, BPs are at risk for self harm or impulsive, reckless behaviors.
Situations are seen as great or terrible, e.g. losing a job means one will be unemployed for life.
Narcissistic vs. borderline splitting
Those with NPD value those who give them admiration, approval, and narcissistic supply. Unsurprisingly, they devalue people who don’t go along with their grandiose fantasies. As one NP says, “You value those who feed your world and your view of yourself.” Narcissistic splitting seems to be focused more on “superior-inferior” terms, such as the competent parent versus the incompetent parent, or the supposedly financially brilliant NP versus the financial incompetent spouse.
People with BPD split depending whether or not others are meeting their emotional needs, whether that is not abandoning them or giving them some space when they feel engulfed (one follows the other and then back again). BP’s see people as all-good or all-bad in “close relationship” terms, judging qualities such as trustworthiness, sexual fidelity, or betrayal.”
The underlined statement is why we do it. It takes place unconsciously. When we recognize ourselves or others doing it we tend to react in a similar manor. Making it hard and very difficult to go with #3. Because that will take a lot of conscious effort and work, where as number 1 and 2 are simply default evolution working on a unconscious level and require little work in comparison.
If a ton of conscious hard work to understand in a authentic way is lukewarm then what are we saying about our teachers, scientist , leaders, sociologist…Lukewarm middlemen? Although I don’t encourage a road of difficult life, I respect those that bloom an adversity, who choose the path to consciously understand themselves, god and the world around them.
wayfarer wrote:…With respect to criticism 3 — there are times when BS is benign, and other times when it is harmful. I can live with teaching mythology as long as it gets to a normative lesson that helps us be better people. But when the myth impells us to hate gays, discredit women, and force a type of impractical moral guilt on teenagers doing natural things like masturbating, then the BS is NOT benign, and must be effectively opposed. Effective opposition isn’t always straight forward, because the moment the church sees you in opposition, then you are marginalized and unable to effectively prevent the bad teachings from getting to the children who need to be protected. NO easy answer here.
The point is that if we set aside the BS origins of the church accepting them as what they are without apology, if we recognize that we’re all part of one spirit, and if we voice opposition at the right time and place, there is a lot of energy we can gain from being involved, active and engaged.
I agree that we can have more influence by “staying lds” than by leaving lds.I actually agree with the church on some things that you seem to disagree on…
I believe I was conceived, as we all were, from a man & a woman & that nature does nothing in vain. Some exists are “exits only” & when you see people you care about suffer because of BS lies promoting the “gay lifestyle” it makes you want to shed some light on the statistical & medical facts of such gay lifestyles.
I may believe differently from some members who may believe homosexuality is wrong because God says so… I believe homosexuality is wrong,
soGod (Goodness/common sense) says so. I also can see how masterbation & any sexual liberation could & would be taken to the extreme, especially by naive teens.
I think this is a matter for parents to help soften the extreme rigidity about, but to still support the general spirit of the idea of sexual purity (both spiritually & avoiding STDs & unwanted pregnancies).
Still, I’m so grateful for good leaders & good friends that have high standards, & have been able to help me raise my children (Sometimes kids listen more to others than their parents & I’d rather have some thinking distortions that I can correct, than illegal drugs, wild sexual activities, gang involvement etc.)
For me, the passion is alive now by finding my own unique path in the church. Lately it’s meant taking a lesson full of objectionable ideas and presenting it in a way which emphasizes aspects of church service we don’t hear much about. It means focusing on pure service and kindness to people without all the church shoulds and trappings.
It means creating a firmer platform of faith as you deconstruct all aspects of the church that make you uncomfortable, decide what you think, and then move forward with a renewed and different perspective than you held the last 20 or 30 years. A change is as good as a rest, as they say.
If I can draw an analogy…the id, the ego, and the super-ego. The id operates on the rebellion and rejection principle and contains desires to withdraw from the church based on doctrine, culture, and church experiences one has. The SuperEgo is built on the idealism principles found in correlated Mormonism. The Ego mediates between these two extremes, working on the Reality Principle, considering both the ID and Super Ego perspective. The Ego finds a Middle Way that maintains respect for the Super Ego (correlated Mormonism) and the Id (that part of us which rejects, questions and often, encourages us to withdraw from our church experience).
Tomorrow I’ll be talking about “Advancing the Work of the Lord” in HP Group. My own personal lens objects strongly to undue linking of Christianity to being a good, dutiful Mormon….and the lessons are very slanted toward merging church interests with individual interests to be Christlike. So, for the last three weeks I’ve been coming up with new angles….and tomorrow, will focus almost entirely on the need to rest in our church service. To achieve balance, to prioritize, to reflect, and to focus on those things that are most important to you right now.
I will also focus on what I have learned about positive psychology and how to view challenges in such a way that we are not discouraged as we try to advance the work of the Lord…but it will be applicable to any worthy goal, whether personal, institutional or otherwise.
Participants will come away hearing a lesson that pushes them toward the mean that balances individual interests with church interests.
I get passion from that now. What a challenge for a dyed in the wool teacher like myself.
I am very passionate about what I believe and don’t believe. I have spent an enormous amount of time and effort sorting out my beliefs over the years. I am passionate about what I do and don’t do regarding religious practices. The only way I get framed as being “lukewarm” is by the definitions of other people — only partly believing and doing what THEY WANT everyone else to believe and do.
I’m smoking red hot for The Gospel of Brian though. I’m cooking meat, not milk. And I slow roast it with spices over a pit of fire! If the Savior don’t like it, he can eat somewhere else. I’ll make my own heaven if I have to. But it’s more fun to share. He can come visit me any time.
Heber13 wrote:Featherina wrote:(Question for all:)
What do you do to keep the passionate spirit alive?
I have tried very hard lately to serve, serve, serve. Loving others is always the motivational juice that feeds my spirit.
:thumbup: It is motivating – especially when it flows naturally.cwald wrote:Featherina wrote:
(Question for all:)What do you do to keep the passionate spirit alive?
Exactly what my religion taught me to…read and pray always…and then follow the spirit.
:thumbup: Exactly! And I do think it takes courage to follow truth & the spirit, despite opposition.SilentDawning wrote:For me, the passion is alive now by finding my own unique path in the church. Lately it’s meant taking a lesson full of objectionable ideas and presenting it in a way which emphasizes aspects of church service we don’t hear much about.
It means focusing on pure service and kindness to people without all the church shoulds and trappings.
It means creating a firmer platform of faith as you deconstruct all aspects of the church that make you uncomfortable, decide what you think, and then move forward with a renewed and different perspective than you held the last 20 or 30 years. A change is as good as a rest, as they say.
If I can draw an analogy…the id, the ego, and the super-ego. The id operates on the rebellion and rejection principle and contains desires to withdraw from the church based on doctrine, culture, and church experiences one has. The SuperEgo is built on the idealism principles found in correlated Mormonism. The Ego mediates between these two extremes, working on the Reality Principle, considering both the ID and Super Ego perspective. The Ego finds a Middle Way that maintains respect for the Super Ego (correlated Mormonism) and the Id (that part of us which rejects, questions and often, encourages us to withdraw from our church experience).
Tomorrow I’ll be talking about “Advancing the Work of the Lord” in HP Group. My own personal lens objects strongly to undue linking of Christianity to being a good, dutiful Mormon….and the lessons are very slanted toward merging church interests with individual interests to be Christlike. So, for the last three weeks I’ve been coming up with new angles….and tomorrow, will focus almost entirely on the need to rest in our church service. To achieve balance, to prioritize, to reflect, and to focus on those things that are most important to you right now.
I will also focus on what I have learned about positive psychology and how to view challenges in such a way that we are not discouraged as we try to advance the work of the Lord…but it will be applicable to any worthy goal, whether personal, institutional or otherwise.
Participants will come away hearing a lesson that pushes them toward the mean that balances individual interests with church interests.
I get passion from that now. What a challenge for a dyed in the wool teacher like myself.
3 thumbs up!:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: (BTW… did you ever realize how positive & friendly those guys standing on the side of the road are – always giving people a thumbs up!
I really like how you put things, SD – you seem to be a natural teacher too.
Advancing the work of the Lord does not necessarily have just one manual answer – to habitually perform every day – but rather a striving to do God’s will, through trial & error (active faith), & through various circumstances.
Advancing the work of God/Love is joy! Imagine a life full of joy! – – Joy from work, from relationships, joy from all of the monotonous things like exercising & washing dishes.
I know we can’t maintain that euphoric feeling of being in love or on top of the world forever… but how awesome it would be to be able to tap into it regularly!
I just started keeping another kind of journal – of dreams & inspiring beliefs & ideas to inspire me & make life feel more joyful.
Good points — and Christ advanced his work in a variety of ways — from pure service, to inspiring others, to simply helping people become whole after sin, to spreading news of his ministry and encouraging baptism. And it can happen inside or outside of the church. The outside part is what I really like. Brian Johnston wrote:I am very passionate about what I believe and don’t believe. I have spent an enormous amount of time and effort sorting out my beliefs over the years. I am passionate about what I do and don’t do regarding religious practices.
The only way I get framed as being “lukewarm” is by the definitions of other people — only partly believing and doing what THEY WANT everyone else to believe and do.
I’m smoking red hot for The Gospel of Brian though. I’m cooking meat, not milk. And I slow roast it with spices over a pit of fire! If the Savior don’t like it, he can eat somewhere else. I’ll make my own heaven if I have to. But it’s more fun to share. He can come visit me any time.
:thumbup: I also feel passionate about some things that I believe & some things that seem to go against the grain of popular belief.
One thing I’ve noticed about people who are finding a unique way to view the lds church, is that none are luke warm – none have apathy about it.
There’s a strong spirit there – sometimes it’s anger, or confusion in trying to sort things out, but I think it’s always a spirit of carving out a new road.
Maybe the heart of Mormonism is based on this idea of seeking personal revelation directly from God instead of going through a church representative & … that you can’t experience God/truth to increasing depths by letting others dictate to you prescribed interpretations of everything. It’s so easy to just go along on robotic, herd auto pilot, but then the gospel is just old news, not good news.
SilentDawning wrote:Good points — and Christ advanced his work in a variety of ways — from pure service, to inspiring others, to simply helping people become whole after sin, to spreading news of his ministry and encouraging baptism. And it can happen inside or outside of the church. The outside part is what I really like.
Yeah, he did love in many different ways & it wasn’t limited.Even the story of the woman begging Jesus to heal her daughter…. Jesus said, “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, & to cast it to dogs.”
I used to think this showed that Jesus was prejudice… but really, it is a lesson in keeping one of the greatest commandments – to love ourselves.
She responded, “Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
She wasn’t going to let someone else’s opinion of her dictate whether she loved herself or not & she asserted herself, to which Jesus was impressed & referred to her respectfully as he did his mother, praised her faith & granted her healing/blessing.
I also think Jesus loved himself & took time to recharge himself spiritually… like when he fasted for all of those days, & when he was separate from his disciples & then met them out on the water.
I’m under the impression that his suffering in the garden of Gethsemane was representative of exploring one’s shadow self, in order to fully “put on the mind of Christ.”
I believe this is what he intended for us to do in following him – to bring to light that which we’ve kept hidden (for fear, etc.).
As we do that (line upon line)… I think the love we feel for ourselves & humanity cannot help but emanate from us.
Just came across a note I jotted down from SPG a while back…regarding this topic. “The middle way is realizing that you simply don’t know the truth, but see value in the traditions & relationships that exist.Happiness is value based, not per-say based on truth. If you value what you have, illusionary or other-wise, you will find more happiness…
Humans MUST learn to find the middle way, for there is no other way.
To join the truth in purity is to cease to exist as human.
To reject the truth wholly is to ensure an existence of suffering & decay, unto the rejection of life.”
Ahhhh. A SPG quote. Brings back some good memories. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Haven’t seen SPG around NOM for awhile. Hope he is okay. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.