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Hi Cwald, I think SPGs ok… I hope so.
I keep in touch with him here & there.
It seems like he’s just busy with other things.
Featherina wrote:Hi Cwald,
I think SPGs ok… I hope so.
I keep in touch with him here & there.
It seems like he’s just busy with other things.
That is good hear.
hello, my name is toadie, and i am a recovering “absolutist.” [hello, toadie]. and so it goes…
i was resistant to the whole idea of a middle way for a very long time. but i think i get it now. i am finding myself in constant struggle to fight off my old, ingrained habits of being very absolute. but i had to do it. if i stayed absolute as so many of my brothers and sisters do, i would have broken by now. in a way, i still broke when decided to refind all this. but it was a break of my choosing. not in whether i would, but in the environment and manner in which i would. the hope being that it would not destroy me, and my daughters and allow me to retain what matters, retain values and hold to important truths… even when i do not always know what those are.
but i am on a path i am now committed to. a difficult path but an important path. and worth it. i see a light at the end of the tunnel. i accept it may be a train, but choose to believe it is not. and daily, i still fight ever-present urges and tendencies of my life that i see i need to shed.
i say that as a pretext to my next question to you. because i feel most of you are well past that point i am coming to, and are simpatico. not that you may see any better than anyone else… but that you recognize the glass, and how dark it is… and in that awareness is a sense of how to look in different ways through it.
question: as recovering absolutist. yet living in a world full of, surrounded by absolutists… how do YOU interact with them? how do you explain things to them in a way that does not get you ex-comm’d? because suddenly, some answers to TR questions may not be as clear to me: “only true”, “only authority” … i see nuances, or i should say, potential for nuances in those things now. and as a bishop or SP may not see it… i am curious.
i am not scared to answer them. do not misunderstand. and perhaps tomorrow i will awake to new understanding on this, MY path and it will make further sense to me that i can.
yet today, it does not. it is not so clear. no so automatic and not so absolute as i once saw.
and i am beginning to love that even. the possibilities are endless.
but while i may yet be ready to re-connect with my faith in ways… those around me may not see me as having a testimony. and i think that is flat wrong. if anything, the notion that JS may have been imperfect, certainly less perfect than many know or accept… and on and on and on… down the line… in some ways gives me even more respect for them, their missions and how they gave their all in their struggle.
but others do not see it that way.
i was reading recently on how john D. has had his struggles being fully in the church as others see it. even being investigated by his leaders. how awful. not to be judged, for that is their job. but to have your intent and heart and motivations and faith and testimony questioned… and in a somewhat public manner relatively speaking.
so, i put it to you. how have you dealt with it? not the middle way a lone.. but with your fellow-members perspectives and leaders reactions to you as you struggle, maybe even with the angel?
The dealing with others part is sometimes difficult. I think for me, I have had to study enough on my own to be comfortable with my ideas before trying to express them or receive criticism of them without feeling defensive. I think most on this sight have found it wise to not rush it, or feel compelled to share new thoughts. It can go south fast.
I think you need to find the right timing, the right dosage, and the right tact to do it successfully.
mrtoad4u wrote:hello, my name is toadie, and i am a recovering “absolutist.”
…So, i put it to you. how have you dealt with it? not the middle way a lone.. but with your fellow-members perspectives and leaders reactions to you as you struggle, maybe even with the angel?
Hi, Toadie!I like your humor mixed with truth – the best kind!
:clap: As a recovering absolutist, myself, I’ve found that keeping an open perspective involves respecting that others I love have the right not to have an open perspective, as has been the case with me, before. When I think about certain things too much (like our different perspectives), then I feel lonely. Yet, when I realize that I cannot reciprocatingly discuss farm life with everyone either, I realize the reality has always been that we will not relate with everyone with every perspective.
It does get annoying when others put me down for embracing good news (the real gospel IMO) instead of the regurgitated one, so then, I
tryto avoid bringing up topics that involve conflicting perspectives. As Heber mentioned, it’s good to be cautious about what we discuss & with whom & when. Although, I believe that God is more important than relationships, I think relationships are more important than petty differences. You mentioned how awesome it is to consider that the possibilities are endless!
It’s mind-boggling but I think that God creates from a higher dimension of infinite possibilities.
They say that mathematically, energy – that which is full of LIFE – is vibration.
(If something is completely still, it lacks life.)
A vibration is something that “can’t conclusively decide which way to go.”
🙂 So… although it may cause some tension, there is GOoD/life in seeking the middle way between absolutes.
IMO, this good, is God – love – hoping & striving for what is best (of all possibiliites) through trial & error (active faith).
And I believe in prioritizing God above all – because all else will fail.
agreed, featherina. i have not been on this road long enough to have much personal experience yet with being ostracized. a little, not much. mostly, so far i have found people i have known and loved and been close with for years and years may look at me like an alien from another planet…. granted, i am funny looking, but still. and so it goes.
but i am seeing that sometimes a heavy measure of caution is needed. to try and make sure the time and place and mood is right for those i care for to hear… or force myself to patience. which is hard. i am very patient in some ways, but when i am “on something?” when i find a loose thread and have to pull it? i am worse than ADD or OCD … i am like, well… ever read the old Wind and the Willows? i am mr. j. thadeus toad–MANIA!!
and i tend to not sleep or eat or be able to focus on other things until i am satiated. its a blessing at times, and a curse at others.
mrtoad4u wrote:i am very patient in some ways, but when i am “on something?” when i find a loose thread and have to pull it? i am worse than ADD or OCD … i am like, well… ever read the old Wind and the Willows? i am mr. j. thadeus toad–MANIA!!
My wife is kind of like that. When she wanted to go on a vacation and I suggest she look into some details, it is no longer possible to mutually decide that we can’t afford it. The looking into it means to spend time imagining the possibilities and she just doesn’t seem to have a detour switch. When she gets into a book or TV series, other life areas will be neglected as much as is permitted until that book or TV series is over and then she doubles back to pick up the slack. It is good to know thyself. Yes, it is situationally a blessing and a curse and it is you in all your messy splendor.
As for dealing with others…I don’t deal with church members often. I mostly see them at church. I agree with Heber that I have grown comfortable enough in my own views to not need to be validated by them. Instead I do the following:
1) Don’t share too often. I am naturally verbose so I’m already going to have a fair amount of comments. Best not to be seen as a know-it-all or participation hog.
2) Keep most comments church consistent – if I am going to go against the grain I will reserve that moment for a time when I feel that what is being taught is harmful and wrong.
3) Even if I must be the voice of dissent I try to keep the comment non-threatening like, “a friend of mine used to say” or “I’ve sometimes wondered about”
4) Know of supportive quotes from current and former church leaders. Church leaders have given a lot of great stuff over the years. Having a quote from a church leader is equal to 2 from Mother Teresa or 3 from Gandhi.
5) I am prepared to drop a discussion with a “certainly something to think about – thanks for the additional insight.” if things get too heavy. This may make the absolutist feel that they have won – but so what! Is there no value in being a peacemaker?
If I were to have a personal talk with an ecclesiastical leader about where I stand, I believe that I would obfuscate the details. See recent threads about different ways to interpret, parse, and honestly answer the TR questions as an example. The phrase “I know that the gospel is true” or simply answering the questions with a “yes” or “no” leaves so much out. I don’t want him to try to fix me, or categorize me if he decides that I can’t be fixed. So I put my best and most general foot forward.
In the end this comes back to being comfortable enough not to need validation from this group. They won’t get you – that’s ok. In the ultimate sense I believe that only God really does “get me” and that is not a bad thing.
That’s it … I think it’s like breaking the spiritual sound barrier when you finally feel independent of what the others in the WArd think of your ideas, and the leadership too. Like roy, I’m circumspect about how deep I get into the divergence of my ideas, and I’m not out to be nakedly honest — but are we ever fully honest with people? Rarely. We have filters about what is appropro to say and what isn’t for social reasons. Used to bug me I was no longer part of the “A” team, but I now exist in a far happier world.
For example, I have a family I used to home teach. Their home teacher moved the month he was assigned so I just kept visiting them. They told me they like me coming over, but am I still their home teacher? I said “I don’t care, I drive by here all the time and I want to make sure you’re taken care of, so I’ll just keep doing it until someone tells me to stop”….they laughed and then said “it’s good to see you so happy”. Out of the blue like that.
By the way, I showed up in my shorts and T-shirt for the visit on the way home from working on a property I just bought. I left feeling very independent of the HT program but functioning in a charitable way and everyone was good with it. (The family is older and having health issues).
I feel as though I’m in the church but not OF it, so to speak. Not a bad place to be right now.
awesome. thanks. i definitely think my own comfort level with this is a factor. maybe because i am refinding answers, sometimes finding different answers, and before, there was always “surety” … a false surety as it turns out, but a surety nonetheless. and now? now i have some new answers, or at least different reasons for the same answers as others, and i am not always sure why. and i know i may never know in this life why… and finding a new comfort level with that, in terms of my interaction with others at church, is tentative right now. caution it is then. mixed with a sparing of details generally. fine. i certainly like the idea of taking ownership of what is mine, and no longer letting others define it for me… even when the cost of that ownership is a loss of some illusions of surety.
thanks.
Roy wrote:4) Know of supportive quotes from current and former church leaders. Church leaders have given a lot of great stuff over the years. Having a quote from a church leader is equal to 2 from Mother Teresa or 3 from Gandhi.
😆 Kind of comical or tragic, but true!SilentDawning wrote:… We have filters about what is appropro to say and what isn’t for social reasons.
We do?:shifty: 😆 I must have missed Filter 101.
Quote:Used to bug me I was no longer part of the “A” team, but I now exist in a far happier world.
You still can be part of that A team, under disguise… “All the world’s a stage, & all the men & women merely players…”http://aka.media.jibjab.com/assets/19/08/33/48/96c1db.jpg Quote:I feel as though I’m in the church but not OF it, so to speak. Not a bad place to be right now.
:thumbup: mrtoad4u wrote:… i certainly like the idea of taking ownership of what is mine, and no longer letting others define it for me… even when the cost of that ownership is a loss of some illusions of surety.
:thumbup: I think the middle way, aka “narrow road less traveled” that few find, is so rarely traveled because of the unsurety.
We’re trecking new territory – which is the gospel – good
news. At a very crucial point in my coming back into activity after 17 years of inactivity was a conversation and TR interview I had with my bishop. Although I had never attended the ward, I felt very strongly one day that I needed to look up my bishop and share what was bothering me. It was primarily philosophical and experiential issues with the Church. (He volunteered that he understood many of my beefs with the Church) Shortly after our second discussion, I got engaged, and my fiance (who was a temple worker), said she was willing to get married anywhere I wanted, but she did have one request. Would I ask that bishop what would be necessary for me to get a temple marriage. With that kind of flexibility I couldn’t tell her no, so I called for our 3rd meeting. The bishop suggested we talk about the issues around the TR questions. We had a full discussion of them, after which he said he would now ask the questions out of straight out of the book, and I was to answer Yes, No, or Earnestly Trying. After the TR questions, he paused and said he wanted to seek guidance from God. After a couple minutes of silence and contemplation, he said that he felt the Lord wanted me to get married in the temple. Then he asked if I was willing to start wearing G’s again, and start attending church. I said I would earnestly try. He signed my recommend and told me that the Stake Pres was a real sticker, but if I answer with Yes, No, or Earnestly Trying, I should be fine. I did and I got the recommend.
Since then, I have divorced the cultural definitions of Mormonism from the council my Bishop gave me. I have held several reasonably responsible callings, like HP Group counselor, GD teacher, HP teacher. Yet I don’t attempt to attend every Sunday meeting, go jogging & walking wearing only shoes & shorts, weather permitting, and don’t stick to closely to the prescribed manuals.
Also, I reread the essay here on StayLDS “What is Official Mormon Doctrine?” That gives me confidence that the correlated Mormons aren’t necessarily where it’s at.
http://www.staylds.com/?p=326 God bless the good Bishops of the Church. dash1730 wrote:At a very crucial point in my coming back into activity after 17 years of inactivity was a conversation and TR interview I had with my bishop. Although I had never attended the ward, I felt very strongly one day that I needed to look up my bishop and share what was bothering me. It was primarily philosophical and experiential issues with the Church. (He volunteered that he understood many of my beefs with the Church) Shortly after our second discussion, I got engaged, and my fiance (who was a temple worker), said she was willing to get married anywhere I wanted, but she did have one request. Would I ask that bishop what would be necessary for me to get a temple marriage. With that kind of flexibility I couldn’t tell her no, so I called for our 3rd meeting.
The bishop suggested we talk about the issues around the TR questions. We had a full discussion of them, after which he said he would now ask the questions out of straight out of the book, and I was to answer Yes, No, or Earnestly Trying. After the TR questions, he paused and said he wanted to seek guidance from God. After a couple minutes of silence and contemplation, he said that he felt the Lord wanted me to get married in the temple. Then he asked if I was willing to start wearing G’s again, and start attending church. I said I would earnestly try. He signed my recommend and told me that the Stake Pres was a real sticker, but if I answer with Yes, No, or Earnestly Trying, I should be fine. I did and I got the recommend.
Since then, I have divorced the cultural definitions of Mormonism from the council my Bishop gave me. I have held several reasonably responsible callings, like HP Group counselor, GD teacher, HP teacher. Yet I don’t attempt to attend every Sunday meeting, go jogging & walking wearing only shoes & shorts, weather permitting, and don’t stick to closely to the prescribed manuals.
Also, I reread the essay here on StayLDS “What is Official Mormon Doctrine?” That gives me confidence that the correlated Mormons aren’t necessarily where it’s at.
http://www.staylds.com/?p=326 Thank you for sharing dash. It helps me be less nervous as I prepare for my own temple wedding while trying to do my best and struggling with the pressures of the be and to do list while working mostly 12-16 hours days 5-6 days a week. I can’t seem to get it all done and I s, trying to be ok with that even if others aren’t.
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