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Hi, In another thread, we were discussing the irrelevancy of the Gold Plates to the translation process and dinosaur bones. I’d like to continue the conversation in this thread!!!
It was suggested I be a bit controversial in this OP to start things off, so I will.
My view at this time is there very little evidence that the BoM is factually true. And the one thing that would have proved it actually came from somewhere and that there may have been Lehites (ie the Gold Plates) were taken by God. That is a big problem for me and one of the reasons I feel it is necessary to ask God to see them. After all, he took them supposedly so people wouldn’t destroy them. I have no intention of doing so and would view them as being extremely valuable (not for their gold), but from a personal point-of-view to know they really existed, that I had been permitted to examine them, and that I knew that these things really did happen. And I’m surprised that other Mormons don’t ask for exactly the same thing and no-one has seen them since they were taken.
Tobin
Quote:It was suggested I be a bit controversial in this OP to start things off, so I will.
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Admin Note:} I don’t know who suggested it, but don’t take that tack again. That’s not how we operate here. We talk about controversial topics all the time, but we don’t intentionally write controversially in order to stir up comments.
Now, understand, I’m not upset, and I’m smiling as I type this – but we have our rules for a reason.
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Personal Comment:] I understand and respect the desire to see the plates, but I just don’t care, personally. Given the translation / transmission process Joseph described, I think there is almost no chance the Book of Mormon as we have it is an exact translation from plates, so having them only would confirm that fact. I think there would be value in making that crystal clear, but I also like the multiple options available by not having the plates. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:It was suggested I be a bit controversial in this OP to start things off, so I will.
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Admin Note:} I don’t know who suggested it, but don’t take that tack again. That’s not how we operate here. We talk about controversial topics all the time, but we don’t intentionally write controversially in order to stir up comments.
Now, understand, I’m not upset, and I’m smiling as I type this – but we have our rules for a reason.
I was not aware of an anti-controversy rule in making or creating posts or comments. Where is this stated? I certainly do not wish to violate the rules of the forum.
From our Mission Statement: Quote:This is not a place for polemics, debate or heated argument; it also is not a place for classic “apologetics”. While we would love to help anyone, this site is focused primarily on those who have moved past their initial feelings of bitterness and anger – or, at least, desire to do so and remain actively engaged with and/or within the LDS Church.
The key is not to be controversial simply to generate comments or to stir controversy. That happens all the time in other places, but we don’t do it here – specifically because we are committed to learning from each other, and intentionally over-the-top controversial wording usually generates more than just comments. It also usually generates argument and negativity. Our mission is all about respect and open, honest communication, and we try to discuss controversial topics in non-contentious ways – to take the controversy away, so to speak, and simply share our views and perspectives about the topic, widely differing though they may be. We simply don’t deal with controversy for the sake of controversy; we deal with it for the sake of coping, understanding, enlightenment, communal support, etc. We deal with it in order to “stay LDS” – not to be controversial.
For what it’s worth, there wasn’t anything overly controversial in your post, and I should have made that clear, as well.I apologize for not doing so. We have had posts and threads here that were WAYmore controversial than this topic. It was the suggestion to be controversial to which I was responding, not any actual controversial statement(s) in the post. Please understand, whenever we get a rash of new participants we nearly always have to talk about this sort of thing, since most people aren’t used to the way we do things here.
/Back to talking about the gold plates, since that is the focus of this post
Tobin wrote:My view at this time is there very little evidence that the BoM is factually true.
I think there is just as little evidence the book is false. I just don’t see factual evidence proving it true or proving it false.
So to me, how does one find out if it is true?
Is it by hefting the gold plates and then we know the words in our Book of Mormon as printed in the English language is true? I don’t think so. What if the gold plates existed and Joseph had absolutely no idea how to translate them so he made it all up? That could happen, and in fact, is kind of likely if Martin Harris loses 116 pages and Joseph has the exact same source of plates but decides…lets just move on and not worry about that section.
If we found archaeological evidence to back up the war stories in the book…does that help prove the teachings of Christ in that record are all true? I don’t see that would help…facts about archaeological events aren’t going to prove doctrines and gospel teachings. It sure would be kinda cool to have some validation of facts…but it wouldn’t prove the gospel teachings are true.
So…gold plates or no gold plates…the book speaks to my spirit. I have no idea how it was generated (gold plates, hieroglyphics, seer stones, the face in the hat, etc), but I love the teachings in it that touch my spirit and help me want to be a better person, and I love how it gives me stories to teach my children how they can have hope in this life to overcome their problems and trials. In that, there is truth.
I also don’t think God thinks it is important for us to see the plates, or we’d have a big display in the conference center in downtown SLC. Asking God to see them, in my opinion, won’t be fruitful. It isn’t going to happen.
Heber13 wrote:Is it by hefting the gold plates and then we know the words in our Book of Mormon as printed in the English language is true? I don’t think so. What if the gold plates existed and Joseph had absolutely no idea how to translate them so he made it all up? That could happen, and in fact, is kind of likely if Martin Harris loses 116 pages and Joseph has the exact same source of plates but decides…lets just move on and not worry about that section.
I don’t think that you fully appreciate the significance of the gold plates. They were not just a crude hunk of gold metal. In fact, we don’t currently know how to physically produce plates of Gold with the characteristics as these Gold plates supposedly had. I believe this is advanced technology and something the Lehites were taught to do is or were given. The significance of the plates themselves would not only establish the Lehites existed, but that they possessed advanced technical knowledge of metal working beyond anything primitive humans were likely to have (or that we even possess today). The existence of these plates would be one of the most wondrous things EVER discovered in the history of mankind and would clearly indicate that we have been contacted by advance life. It would almost be like discovering the Lehites had nuclear reactors. It would also help establish advanced beings contacted humans and taught them to build ships and other things portrayed in the BofM.
Heber13 wrote:If we found archaeological evidence to back up the war stories in the book…does that help prove the teachings of Christ in that record are all true? I don’t see that would help…facts about archaeological events aren’t going to prove doctrines and gospel teachings. It sure would be kinda cool to have some validation of facts…but it wouldn’t prove the gospel teachings are true.
Again, I think you are mistaken. Jesus Christ taught civilizing principles to help advance our species. The proven existence of Hebrews on this continent, who had to be taught or given technology to even get here, would be astonishing. In my view, it would definitively prove that many of these accounts (such as the teachings of Christ) have a basis in fact and that advanced life (Jesus Christ for example) have been interfering in and helping our species evolve and develop.
Heber13 wrote:I also don’t think God thinks it is important for us to see the plates, or we’d have a big display in the conference center in downtown SLC. Asking God to see them, in my opinion, won’t be fruitful. It isn’t going to happen.
I think God wants us to know the truth and that includes the hard facts. If the plates exist, I see no reason we should not be able to see them and examine them. And I believe in time, these beings will return the plates and allow us to see them. The time when that will happen is when we ASK and are ready to receive them and know the truth ourselves.
I guess I see the Gold plates as being very significant. In and of themselves, they establish some rather amazing facts – which would transform our understanding of the ancient world, and our understanding of the universe we live in. I don’t think I can state how paramount these plates are in the history of our species (provided they exist). They would be that remarkable and should not be dismissed as insignificant or not worth seeking.
As I’ve said before, I like that people here can disagree quite strongly with each other and still converse civilly, respecting people with different views without trying to convert them to one’s own view. It’s what makes us work like we do. Thus, I am glad you can share your view about the plates with us. Now, for some personal commentary to give a specific example of what I was saying in my previous comments:
Quote:“I don’t think that you fully appreciate the significance of the gold plates. They weren’t . . .”
This is a good example of something that can be said differently in a way that fits our mission better. Making a few slight changes to the wording changes the tone significantly. For example:
Quote:“I see the gold plates as being more significant than you do. I don’t think they were . . .”
It’s a subtle difference, but it’s not an insignificant one – since, frankly, I and (I think) most of the other participants here aren’t going to share the view you just explained. I can understand your view, but I simply don’t share it. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with sharing that perspective here, but to word it as being the right view and something everyone would understand if they only appreciated the significance more is not what we encourage.
Old-Timer wrote:As I’ve said before, I like that people here can disagree quite strongly with each other and still converse civilly, respecting people with different views without trying to convert them to one’s own view. It’s what makes us work like we do. Thus, I am glad you can share your view about the plates with us.
Now, for some personal commentary to give a specific example of what I was saying in my previous comments:
Quote:“I don’t think that you fully appreciate the significance of the gold plates. They weren’t . . .”
This is a good example of something that can be said differently in a way that fits our mission better. Making a few slight changes to the wording changes the tone significantly. For example:
Quote:“I see the gold plates as being more significant than you do. I don’t think they were . . .”
It’s a subtle difference, but it’s not an insignificant one – since, frankly, I and (I think) most of the other participants here aren’t going to share the view you just explained. I can understand your view, but I simply don’t share it. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with sharing that perspective here, but to word it as being the right view and something everyone would understand if they only appreciated the significance more is not what we encourage.
Do you think the gold plates were a crude hunk of gold metal?
Heber13 wrote:So to me, how does one find out if it is true?
Here is how you know it is true:
Quote:Moroni 10:4
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true;…….
So, I pray, and I do exactly as the book says:“God, are these things not true”?
He can answer one of two ways:
1. I hear a voice say “Yes, these things are not true”
2. I hear a voice say” No, these things are not true”
Short of pulling out a book on Boolean logic , I’m not sure either answer tells me anything about the book!
Quote:Do you think the gold plates were a crude hunk of gold metal?
No. I just don’t believe there was any revealed, advanced technology involved.
Sheldon, fwiw, there are other legitimate ways that question could be answered that don’t involve hearing a voice, especially since the wording itself uses “manifest” and “by the power of the Holy Ghost” rather than “speak” and “by His own voice”. I agree completely, however, with the following that you said:
Quote:I’m not sure either answer tells me anything about the book!
Tobin wrote:I’m surprised that other Mormons don’t ask for exactly the same thing
Well, I would say that other Mormons don’t see the Gold Plates in the same way that you do. And, by the way, thanks for correctly referring to them as the “Gold Plates” rather than the primary-song-ized “Golden Plates”. Anyway, there was a time when I knew the BofM to be “true” based on spiritual knowledge. I never had a testimony that the Gold Plates were true. In other words, I think faithful members of the Church see the Gold Plates as the media, but the BofM is what was from God. From that standpoint, the physical nature or even the literal existence of the GP is secondary.Old-Timer wrote:No. I just don’t believe there was any revealed, advanced technology involved.
So, do you believe that Nephi just knew how to make plates out of gold that we don’t know how to make today? And how did he just come by this knowledge exactly? For example, do you believe making plates out of gold was common knowledge in 6th century BC Jerusalem?
Tobin wrote:I don’t think that you fully appreciate the significance of the gold plates.
I could see how this is quite the problem area for you. You revere these gold plates, and yet, will likely never be able to see them.
Tobin wrote:I believe this is advanced technology …. The significance of the plates themselves would not only establish the Lehites existed, but that they possessed advanced technical knowledge of metal working beyond anything primitive humans were likely to have (or that we even possess today). The existence of these plates would be one of the most wondrous things EVER discovered in the history of mankind…
I can’t share that same view. Computers are pretty amazing to me.
Tobin wrote:I guess I see the Gold plates as being very significant.
I can appreciate these mean so much to you.
Quote:3 Ne 17: 15 And when he had said these words, he himself also knelt upon the earth; and behold he prayed unto the Father, and the things which he prayed cannot be written, and the multitude did bear record who heard him.
16 And after this manner do they bear record: The eye hath never seen, neither hath the ear heard, before, so great and marvelous things as we saw and heard Jesus speak unto the Father;
17 And no tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man, neither can the hearts of men conceive so great and marvelous things as we both saw and heard Jesus speak; and no one can conceive of the joy which filled our souls at the time we heard him pray for us unto the Father.
I think what I feel is that seeing with our eyes, or hearing with our ears, or even being able to speak in our language will always be insufficient for some things that are so incredible to our souls, and the physical proofs we seek will never motivate us to want to be a better person as much as spiritual witnesses do.
Seeing that it is most likely you will never be shown the plates…do you feel you can ever appreciate the book of mormon as much as you appreciate the golden plates? One you have in your possession…the other you never will. Which is more important to you?
Do you have any strategies on how to deal with your conundrum…or are you just wanting to debate with me whether I appreciate the gold plates or not the same way you do?
On Own Now wrote:Tobin wrote:I’m surprised that other Mormons don’t ask for exactly the same thing
Well, I would say that other Mormons don’t see the Gold Plates in the same way that you do. And, by the way, thanks for correctly referring to them as the “Gold Plates” rather than the primary-song-ized “Golden Plates”. Anyway, there was a time when I knew the BofM to be “true” based on spiritual knowledge. I never had a testimony that the Gold Plates were true. In other words, I think faithful members of the Church see the Gold Plates as the media, but the BofM is what was from God. From that standpoint, the physical nature or even the literal existence of the GP is secondary.I agree. But I don’t think they’ve thought it through and I think that is the nature of the problem here. I think if or when the gold plates are returned, they establish the Book of Mormon rather definitively all by themselves. And I believe by simply obtaining them from these beings and by understanding what they represent, that would radically change how our species views our history and place in the universe. If there were such gold plates, I suspect that is why they were taken. They really do prove that intelligent alien life is interfering with our species and I don’t think they want that known at this point.
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