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I believe the Atonement covers Jesus’ own transgressions (incorrect things done without knowledge and understanding or innocent mistakes) and also for the pain he caused others – like the story of him at the temple as a boy. He absolutely caused great anguish, so if he atoned for the pain of all humanity, he also atoned for the pain his action inflicted on Mary and Joseph. I have written about that on my blog, so it’s in the public domain, and I would have no problem talking about it in a class – but I would have to lay the foundation properly to do so.
In cases like you described, I try to consider the source & not let it bother me. I still have to give the 2 cents or I’ll explode. The Church really needs more then one voice or I need the correction.
When obviously wrong, I don’t mind being corrected or challenged by being asked my sources.
Quote:Don’t let them occupy space in your head without paying rent.
Quote:Don’t let them occupy space in your head without paying rent.
:thumbup: Great point, Mike. I was telling my son the other day that he worries too much about what others think. I need to turn that back on myself I guess. I’ll try to remind myself that my beliefs have value even if they don’t fit the party line.
Roy wrote:
Perhaps I have spent my church credibility over time and am just not well tolerated anymore. Perhaps divergent questions are permitted from new converts but not from more seasoned members. Perhaps the instructor felt that I was questioning the perfection of the Savior and tearing at the very fabric of the atonement with it.I will never really know because there was no opportunity to gain better understanding. I feel like I did the mature thing in not pushing the issue but I feel marginalized
😳 ….and the band played on.In some ways it seems that I am getting really accomplished at Staying LDS – as long as I do not have to interact with any other Mormons.
There are some people so ingrained in their own knowledge and their answers are so concrete that they cant be challenged. That is their fault not your own. It doesn’t make it any easier to deal with this line of thinking though. Be glad that you’ve got an open mind and keep questioning, I think HF wants us to question. Life is a wonder, and if we’re not wondering, we might as well be concrete.
Keep questioning, I have a few members in our ward that when they raise their hand in class, everyone inwardly groans. Every one of the questions comes from a thoughtful point of view, which most people and even I sometime fail to grasp. Every now and then a question comes that pierces through the concrete and makes everyone think. If you get the chance to talk, open everyone’s minds to the fact that if they are not Questioning that HF might have something for them to learn that they’ll miss. I’m not good at talking to people but find that I’m better when i can think it out and write it down.
I found that I get ttaken advantage of in conversations with ‘power’ people and those who think like Machiavelli because I just think slower and need to formulate my thoughts. It’s been a real struggle and I’ve learned to cope by not getting panicked into a corner, ” I’ll think about that and get back to you ” has been great because very rarely does someone need an immediate response.
I would love to avoid these people completely, but I think I’m supposed to learn how to overcome them. Dealing with any group of people is a challenge for me, church, scouting, work, everywhere.
I think both Roy and MJ, I think you can affect change in your spheres and break some of the concrete.
Roy wrote:I raised my hand and asked if it wasn’t possible that young Jesus was just thoughtless since the bible says that he learned and grew from grace to grace.
The teacher responded with a resounding “No” even cutting off my comment. She said that JS had said that Jesus even at this young age was beyond thoughtlessness or mistakes. She then testified that Jesus was never thoughtless and never sinned. I was embarrassed and DW put her hand on my leg in a gesture of reassurance and restraint.
I have been thinking about this. If Jesus never sinned/ was never thoughtless or inconsiderate/ was perfect then when did he attain this state? Good question! There is some evidence to indicate that Jesus was not perfected until the resurrection when he said “Be thou perfect, even as I and your father in heaven are perfect.”
For some apparently it becomes really important to believe that he had achieved this state by the time he was 12 to the effect that he was above thoughtless actions. I am reminded of Ray’s least favorite song quote in “Little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes”. It would seem that the author of the song wanted to emphasize the supernatural nature of Jesus to the effect that he was above crying even as a baby.
In Primary we are singing a song with the following line: “A long time ago in a beautiful place, Children were gathered ’round Jesus. He blessed and taught as they felt of His love.
Each saw the tears on His face.” This song paints a picture of an adult Jesus that is capable of tears (apparently when he is happy). Much more relevant is John 11:35 “Jesus Wept” (apparently over sadness)
In Moses 7:28 the pre-mortal Jesus as Jehovah God wept over the suffering of some of his creation. This dumbfounded Enoch who could not understand God having such emotions.
So there is sufficient reason to believe that it is not unorthodox to imagine a Jesus who is fairly human in his emotions. Yet for some this human-ness is troubling. It conflicts with their confidence of Jesus as a firm and iron rod, unwaveringly straight and true. For them it can call into question everything that they believe in.
I hope that reflecting on this helps me be more compassionate towards the worldview of such people even when they may be compelled by the rigidity of their belief to act with intolerance.
Roy wrote:So there is sufficient reason to believe that it is not unorthodox to imagine a Jesus who is fairly human in his emotions. Yet for some this human-ness is troubling. It conflicts with their confidence of Jesus as a firm and iron rod, unwaveringly straight and true. For them it can call into question everything that they believe in.
I hope that reflecting on this helps me be more compassionate towards the worldview of such people even when they may be compelled by the rigidity of their belief to act with intolerance.
Like “follow the prophet,” I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed on Jesus as always being perfect in the church. Personally I don’t see it as unorthodox to believe he was a normal child, either. Perhaps that’s why we don’t know much about his childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood (other than it really doesn’t matter what he did in those years). That “Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man” indicates to me that He may not have always been perfect, for how can something already perfect increase? I can also grasp the idea that Jesus was not half God and half man but fully both God and man, and I can appreciate that the Bible describes instances of Jesus experiencing a wide range of human emotions. Trying to convince the more orthodox of this, as you point out, it difficult because of the very notion you mention – if this can be questioned or could be wrong, then so can other things.
Frankly I am unaware of what other churches teach on this subject. Do most Christians believe Jesus was born perfect, never sinned, etc.?
Most believe He is God, in the flesh. He is the Son, and the Father. Perfect in every way. Not capable of sinning or making mistakes, and that going about His Father’s business to teach in the temple was not a mistake, but an example for which Mary and Joseph should learn about who He is. To suggest He had to learn through mistakes, or apologize, or to suggest His brother is the devil, or to suggest He is our Older Brother, is blasphemous to speak of the Lord in such a way. And I do think that the teachings and doctrines we have, do allow us to think about Him slightly differently. But to grow in grace and truth for the Lord is not the way other religions think of their Lord. Quote:Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
I think most interpret it as the mistake wasn’t with the child, but with others that did not understand him. That’s what I would think others believe.
Quote:I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed on Jesus as always being perfect in the church.
In the Church? Try in all of Christianity. At least in the LDS Church, there is space to have the conversation regarding what “perfect” might mean and that he could be sinless and still make mistakes and/or cause harm.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed on Jesus as always being perfect in the church.
In the Church? Try in all of Christianity. At least in the LDS Church, there is space to have the conversation regarding what “perfect” might mean and that he could be sinless and still make mistakes and/or cause harm.
I did admit that I don’t know what other churches teach on the subject…. I do get Heber’s point about others teaching He was actually God in the flesh and that’s part of their understanding of the Trinity. If that is your belief I can see how Jesus would then have had to be perfect because God is perfect.
And is there really space to have a discussion about the idea that perhaps Jesus made mistakes or caused harm? I can’t imagine broaching that subject in my ward and making any headway. I
mightbe able to have a conversation like that with a few select members in private, but even then I’m not sure they would like or try to understand my point of view. (I therefore have kept it to myself except here.) I’ve said it in multiple meetings over the years – but I’ve been VERY careful to frame it properly, in a way that others can understand and accept (or, at least, not stone me for saying). :thumbup: What is most discouraging about your story is how little impact we can really have for good on others when we spend the whole time thinking we have the answers to their easily-solved problem. My guess is your RS president doesn’t really understand what the problem is in the first place because that would require listening rather than bolstering her belief that her way is right. Too many people, religious and otherwise, focus on being right or knowing better than others, and not enough on listening to others with empathy. That’s infuriating when you are on the receiving end. Beware such “friends.” The primary teachers manual says the following: Quote:•Show the picture Boy Jesus in the Temple. Why were the men in the temple impressed with Jesus? (Luke 2:46–47. Note that Joseph Smith’s translation of this scripture says, “And they were hearing him, and asking him questions.”) What does this tell us about how much Jesus had learned in his childhood? What can you do to learn more about the gospel? How was Jesus honoring and obeying his Father in the temple?
•What did Jesus do to honor and obey Joseph and Mary? (Luke 2:51–52.) Explain that Joseph and Mary taught Jesus during his childhood just as our parents teach us during our childhoods. How can you honor your parents?
The first bullet refers us to the JST to bolster the idea that Jesus was supernaturally wise.
However the second bullet tells us that Jesus was taught by his parents. This is contradicted by JST Matthew 3: 25
Quote:And he served under his father, and he spake not as other men, neither could he be taught; for he needed not that any man should teach him.
The quote that was originally shown to me to demonstrate that Jesus could not have been thoughtless was the following:
Quote:“When still a boy, He had all the intelligence necessary to enable Him to rule and govern the kingdom of the Jews, and could reason with the wisest and most profound doctors of law and divinity, and make their theories and practice to appear like folly compared with the wisdom he possessed.” TPJS p. 392
So there does seem to be a bit of a contradiction or paradox here. We want Jesus to have always been perfect and yet we want him to have progressed line upon line – to learn and grow from grace to grace and I believe there is some tension between these two competing concepts.
In a church setting I do believe that we would be prone to err on the side of Jesus as eternally perfect but that doesn’t mean that there is not room for other teachings. Even the primary manual seems to diverge from the JST and nobody seems to be upset about it.
My guess is…there are speculative teachings because we don’t really know, leading to contradictions. Also, there is the focus to make a lesson applicable to the audience. Teaching kids principles like to obey and honor parents, and modelling Jesus for the kids, over really teaching technically correct doctrine.
I mean…Jesus had to learn to speak from someone.
Heber13 wrote:My guess is…there are speculative teachings because we don’t really know, leading to contradictions.
Also, there is the focus to make a lesson applicable to the audience. Teaching kids principles like to obey and honor parents, and modelling Jesus for the kids, over really teaching technically correct doctrine.
Good point Heber. I agree!
And thanks for humoring me on this paticular tangent.
In the early days of Christianity, there were different camps. The four gospel writers didn’t agree with each other. At one end of the spectrum, in Mark, Jesus is a tragic figure. He is painted as a man given amazing powers by God, but who was frustrated by mankind and abandoned by God… He fits mold of the sacrificial lamb; God punished him because of us. Isaiah: “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.” Mark: “And [Jesus] saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.”
At the opposite end of the spectrum, in John, Jesus is a larger than life figure. He is a godly being sent from a realm above. He is cool and collected. He is the force behind it all. He and God are either the same, or at least the same for all intents and purposes. Evil cannot stop him. In John, Jesus seems like the loving side of the OT god, and a quote from Exodus dovetails with Jesus of John: “I will claim you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God who has freed you from your oppression (in Egypt).” John: “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
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