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For those of you who question and doubt but have a TBM spouse, how do you go about having conversations? I’ll give you a bit of background so you know why and more clearly what I’m asking. I have been inactive in the church (not the gospel) for 10 years. When I stopped going to church it was a very tumultuous time for me and for my family, there were other things going on as well (unemployment, debt, etc.). I had been shaken to the very core, although my wife wasn’t, and honestly I don’t know why not. At first, when I started having doubts, I tried to address those concerns with her but was outright rejected. From my point of view, all she wanted to do was argue and tell me how wrong I was. I didn’t want to argue, I wasn’t (and I’m still not) out to “convert” her or anyone else to my point of view, and I didn’t feel I was wrong. Basically our last “conversation” on the subject was when I told her I wasn’t coming to church anymore.
Now, 10 years down the road, my thinking has evolved. I have returned to acceptance of some things I questioned, while I still have questions and doubts about some other stuff. I don’t have a friend in the church whom I can discuss these things with, and likewise conversations with the bishop & SP have been fairly fruitless and time wasting. The SP, for instance, counseled that it’s OK to have questions and everybody does to some extent – things I already knew and not really helpful in overcoming my concerns. (That’s why you folks here have been so helpful.) Having had what I consider a bad experience in the past when I brought these things up to my wife, I am reluctant to bring up the subject again, even with my “new found faith.” So, how do you do it? How do you have civil conversations with a loved one or friend that allows you to share where you’re at without it turning into an argument?
We have conversations about the consternation we both feel — but only to the extent my WIFE feels it. For example, our home ward Bishop really alienated her and other members of the Ward. So, when she wants to talk about that, I’m supportive. On the other hand, the topics I would love to talk about only upset her. So, I steer clear of them. I support everyone in going to church, hold FHE on topics I feel I can discuss with the family, and encourage church attendance and activity attendance.
Essentially, the church is like a lot of topics in marriages you have to be judicious about discussing. For the good of my wife, I don’t disturb her TBM attitudes. I’m OK with it.
At church, I talk to no one about my unorthodoxy. No one at all. As you say, it only ends poorly. Instead, I have phrases I use to stonewall when leaders want to talk to me about why I am not a TR-holder, not serving in a calling etcetera.
The sooner you realize that the only place you can discuss unorthodox attitudes is here at StayLDS or online in general, anonymously, the happier you will be.
I think it depends on the level of trust and respect and commitment you have in your relationship, and it probably varies greatly from couple to couple on how open and honest they can safely be in the relationship. Before deciding how to approach that…I would first think through why you would want to? If the discussion leads to contention, should we not avoid that?
What is it that compels you to want to raise the subject?
After many years I still cannot share all of my personal perspectives. In my view they will be misinterpreted or taken out of context. I don’t know how to get around this problem because it all depends on perspective – meaning when you are standing in a different place looking at the same thing you see it in a different way. My wife and family have had different experiences and hold different assumptions and expectations than myself, they are effectively in a different place. I feel it is my duty to respect their position and perspective, and not make my personal validation an issue that tries to draw them over to my vantage point. …and if they cannot see from my vantage point many topics are simply not worth discussing — they simply cannot see the same detail from where they stand. The most important thing that I keep in mind is that I’m the one who changed, not her, so it is my burden to bear. I have to accommodate her beliefs, because they were our beliefs at one time. I suggest getting 100% comfortable with her faith, activity, and involvement in the Church. Learn to celebrate it. Suppose your wife were getting a masters degree. You’d support her. You’d encourage her. If she needed time to work on a project, you’d figure out how to provide that to her. When it came time for graduation, you’d be there in your best suit and tie and a big smile on your face. This would all be true even if she were studying a field for which you have limited understanding or interest. Treat her faith with the same regard. If she has a calling at Church, help her to do it. If she wants to go to some RS activity, encourage her, etc, etc, etc.
Once you have that in your mind, and you are living that way, you might find that you don’t need to have the “conversations” you seek.
To me, I believe 90% of the Church is wonderful, good, admirable, and sincere. Most of the 10% is stuff that doesn’t involve Church members on a day-to-day basis. For example, you probably know that I hate the fact that the Church was ever embroiled in polygamy and I wish the Church would refute it. But then, I have to ask myself… when was the last time I heard any reference to it in Church? While it is unfortunately part of our vernacular, it is fortunately not part of our practice. I’ve been a life-long member and I’ve never met a polygamist. For people who are believers, the 90% good that I’m talking about is what they see as the 100% of the Church and they don’t spend energy thinking about the Kinderhook Plates. Therefore, it works for me to frame my conversations with my wife mostly in the good areas.
That’s not to say that I never express concerns or desires for the Church to change. But I stay away from doctrinal proofs/disproofs. My wife knows fully well that I support same-sex marriage. She knows that I want to see and end to gender-based roles that have nothing to do with priesthood. She knows that while I continue to observe it, I don’t think the WoW is the worlds most important commandment. She knows that I get frustrated with the by-committee approach to everything in the Church. But she also knows that I think the Church is a great opportunity to live a good life. She knows that I support the Bishop. She knows that I respect the Temple. She knows that I think of the Church as good. I never talk to her about why I don’t believe, only that I don’t.
Finally, no matter who you choose to talk to about it, I think it is best to talk about what you DO believe, and leave the stuff you DON’T believe out of it. You have to understand that when you are talking to a faithful member of the Church who believes certain things, that if you start telling them that you don’t believe those things, then it will come across as contrary at best and an attack at worst. It’s better to find common ground than to define what isn’t common.
On Own Now wrote:no matter who you choose to talk to about it, I think it is best to talk about what you DO believe, and leave the stuff you DON’T believe out of it.
Good post!!
:thumbup: I’ve been married for almost 27 years, and my wife’s views on quite a few things have changed over that time as a result of being married to me (and some of mine have changed as a result of being married to her), but I haven’t “forced the issue” once or tried consciously to “make her see” something. Our views have changed as we were ready to have them change. Rather than write a new comment, I am going to provide links to two posts I’ve written here – one from 2009 about using my marriage as a metaphor for my church experience and one that discusses people having different perspectives. I’m sure you haven’t read the first one, but I bumped up the second one recently, so you might have read it already – and the part that is most relevant to your situation in the second one is the first few paragraphs that deal with “thestrals”.
“My Marriage as a Metaphor for My Church”( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=238&hilit=my+marriage+as+a+metaphor “Thestrals, Dementors, Boggarts and Crises of Faith”( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3864&hilit=as+an+analogy Thanks all for your supportive comments. I didn’t expect anything less. I don’t want to do a ton of quoting, so just a couple general comments and then I’ll do a couple specific ones.
I want to have a discussion because my thinking has evolved in that I do believe more now than I did before and I am considering this return to church that I have talked about. As you may know, I’ve already decided to have talk with the bishop before that happens to let him clearly know where I stand and what the expectations should be, but I think something similar should happen with my wife – I don’t want to just get dressed one day and go to church leaving her wondering what’s going on. Secondly, I am comfortable with her beliefs and those of the children. I have always been supportive of them attending any and all church activities they like, I have been supportive of her calling (she was early morning seminary teacher until recently) and picked up the lion’s share of the housework, cleaning etc. so she can work and do what she feels she needs to do to fulfill her calling. I am supportive of my son who has a mission call and is leaving soon. I’m the one with the tech know-how to make sure conference and other broadcasts are the TV at my house. I don’t believe support is an issue. Lastly, I have “lived the gospel” for lack of a better term while I have been inactive. I do wear my garments, I keep the WoW, I strive to keep the two great commandments (and thus all the others), and while I don’t actively participate in meal prayers I do passively participate (bowed head, eyes closed). We were never big on FHE, but we do indeed spend more quality time together than most families I know, and I do participate in gospel discussions to the extent I feel comfortable without being pushy about my personal beliefs – again, I’m not out to convert anyone.
I think I answered at least one of your questions with the above, Heber13. I think a conversation is going to be necessary soon.
Orson, that is the philosophy of my life – each of us experience different things and each of us experiences them differently. Clearly the situation that led to me almost leaving the church was experienced much differently from her perspective.
On Own Now, good point: “The most important thing that I keep in mind is that I’m the one who changed, not her, so it is my burden to bear. I have to accommodate her beliefs, because they were our beliefs at one time.” While I am supportive as outlined above, I could probably do better. I am fully comfortable with her activity and the boys’ activity in church and church related activities. Approaching what I do believe is the tricky part since I don’t exactly know what I believe, and thinking back, the limited discussions we had in the past did focus on what I didn’t believe (which was most things at the time).
Thanks Ray for the links – I had read Thestrals et al before, I will peruse the other one.
I made a mistake by not sharing my feelings with my wife sooner. She knew something was bothering me long before I dared confide my unbelief in her. I am lucky to have a spouse that is so supportive of me and tolerant of my heretic views. She is a free thinker and quite unorthodox in her views, although more towards the believing end of the spectrum. I am more towards the unbelieving end of the spectrum and have really cut down my participation in church.
This journey we are on has freed both of us in different ways, and also changed us. I wish I had shared my feelings with her much sooner, I just didn’t know how. It was hard enough just processing them for myself. I know not everyone has the same situation at home that I do, but for me candid, honesty is almost always the best answer and sooner rather than later.
Origami wrote:candid, honesty is almost always the best answer and sooner rather than later.
I like hearing how some people have good relationships where this can happen. It isn’t always so, but its nice to hear the positive stories.
DarkJedi, thanks for sharing more background. It makes sense you want to bring it up in those circumstances.
I think you prepare your thoughts, and wait for the best opportunity and then remember 3 things: Timing, Dose, and Tact.
Pick the right time to share something that may be relevant or not so out of the blue, or the right time when your spouse is in a good place to talk, not when the kids are going crazy or it is stressful to get to church on time or something like that…but a good time when you are both able to be open and honest.
Remember the Dose. Don’t overdose them with too many things you have going on in your head that you want to get out. A small dose to talk about it, see how they digest it, and then be prepared to stop the conversation before it is overwhelming.
Tact, as someone said earlier…instead of a negative tone, focus on the positives such as what you do believe and do miss about church, not on the negatives that drove you away. Build relationships on common ground, honestly and without guile. Perhaps even compliment her on her faithful example and how much you respect her for that. And also remember she may have bottled up feelings about this for a while…so if this opens the door to her spouting some negative things when you are just trying to be positive, be tactful and remember her feelings too and allow her to react however she feels so the communication in the relationship can be open and safe and honest…not just the way you scripted it in your head. Allow her to be honest too.
Hopefully that goes well. If you follow through with it…let us know how it goes. I think it is cool you are trying.
Origami is my husband. I am the more believing side of our marriage. I haven’t analyzed everything that has been said. People are so articulate with their wording and I see things a little rosier than some. Living in this right now though but my first thoughts to you DarkJedi are: 1. She has been married to you for at least 10 years through your faith crisis. She probably has resolved many of her concerns about how things will go. For instance raising kids, what happens at tithing settlement, will you support her calling/belief. I would actually encourage you to ask her if she would like to know. Chances are that she would like to support you and help you. It has to be an elephant in the room sometimes.
2. The advice that has been given about respecting her beliefs is huge. She doesn’t need you to change her mind. Share your belief but also allow her the agency to choose her way regardless if it is different. You would probably want to gauge her knowledge on some topics as well. Don’t burst unnecessary bubble.
My husband mentioned that I am a freethinker, but we really don’t have issues about the same things. I have made it work for myself and have never experienced the anger that some do. I respect my spouses anger, but I don’t have to agree with him to listen and say “I still love you even if we are different”.
3. We, as a couple were in a really good place when this crisis started for my husband. I can think back on a few times in our 20 year marriage that it would have been rough or even catastophic. We are committed to each other and really are best friends. We haven’t always been and the results of timing are probably huge. Mostly I just needed to know that because of his change of belief, that commitment and love did not change. He loves my kids, he loves me and is doing the best to follow his heart with his own personal integrity staying intact.
4. StayLDS has been a gift! I don’t know how open her thinking is but this is a place where I have been more able to understand my spouse. I have looked at other places, and for me this is somewhere that problems can be solved and respect is given to those posters. The negativity in other places oozes out of their words.I still don’t know of anyone personally that has gone through this but it has helped to not feel alone.
Long, but I hope this helps you. Best of luck!
GodisLove wrote:Origami is my husband. I am the more believing side of our marriage. I haven’t analyzed everything that has been said. People are so articulate with their wording and I see things a little rosier than some. Living in this right now though but my first thoughts to you DarkJedi are:
1. She has been married to you for at least 10 years through your faith crisis. She probably has resolved many of her concerns about how things will go. For instance raising kids, what happens at tithing settlement, will you support her calling/belief. I would actually encourage you to ask her if she would like to know. Chances are that she would like to support you and help you. It has to be an elephant in the room sometimes.
It is Definitely an elephant in the room fairly often. I think she would like to help, but I’m not sure she fully understands the depth of some of my doubts. Good advice nonetheless, thank you. (BTW, we have been married 23 years)
Quote:2. The advice that has been given about respecting her beliefs is huge. She doesn’t need you to change her mind. Share your belief but also allow her the agency to choose her way regardless if it is different. You would probably want to gauge her knowledge on some topics as well. Don’t burst unnecessary bubble.
My husband mentioned that I am a freethinker, but we really don’t have issues about the same things. I have made it work for myself and have never experienced the anger that some do. I respect my spouses anger, but I don’t have to agree with him to listen and say “I still love you even if we are different”.
I really am not out to change anyone’s mind. I do think that she may have had that perception early on, probably because I was handling it wrong with her. She perceived me as angry, and I was – very angry and very hurt, like a wounded animal. That’s why I want to have a conversation, though, because I am less angry and my views have changed considerably in some areas.
Quote:3. We, as a couple were in a really good place when this crisis started for my husband. I can think back on a few times in our 20 year marriage that it would have been rough or even catastrophic. We are committed to each other and really are best friends. We haven’t always been and the results of timing are probably huge. Mostly I just needed to know that because of his change of belief, that commitment and love did not change. He loves my kids, he loves me and is doing the best to follow his heart with his own personal integrity staying intact.
I think this is true for us, too. In some ways we are actually closer than we were 10 years ago. Immediately before my crisis, I still believed God would work everything out as I had put the issue “in his hands.” I think she still believes that, even though I am in pretty much the same situation I was in 10 years ago and she has had to go to work and is the breadwinner (in a job she doesn’t particularly like). Although I feel our marriage has teetered, neither of us has ever verbalized that.
Quote:4. StayLDS has been a gift! I don’t know how open her thinking is but this is a place where I have been more able to understand my spouse. I have looked at other places, and for me this is somewhere that problems can be solved and respect is given to those posters. The negativity in other places oozes out of their words.I still don’t know of anyone personally that has gone through this but it has helped to not feel alone.
She doesn’t know I have found this site, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is a gift. I have also visited many other sites, most of which are actually anti-Mormons in disguise. I’m not sure how open she would be to a site like this – I’m not sure TBMs would actually see this site as positive because we’re free to openly discuss things here that we can’t in church, with other members in general, or on other LDS sites. Questioning things like tithing, wearing of garments, and fallibility of prophets is strictly taboo on most LDS sites, and I think that’s because they don’t want any “negative” influence on the faithful. Also, I’m not sure I want her to know what I have written here – not that we have secrets, but I enjoy the anonymity here and she would easily figure out I am the Dark Jedi.
DJ, Have you checked out the Faces East website? That might be something you and your wife look at together, while keeping your anonymity on this site as a outlet.
DarkJedi, I wish you well in attempting to discuss things with your TBM wife. I unfortunately can’t relate directly. My wife was a never-Mo and is better educated than I am. She and I are pretty close on our beliefs. She’s a humanist, believes in evolution as I do, and believes in science and getting the best education possible. We both discount religion as mostly superstition which may or may not have some basis on some type of paleo-contact. She believes my account about encountering an advanced life-form and understands why I embrace Mormonism to a degree and believe it stems from these types of encounters as well.
I guess my advice is to be understanding. We are a pretty primitive species and many of us need to cling to superstition. Most people aren’t able to recognize that Jesus Christ and these other beings are merely more advanced intelligent life than ourselves and employ technology millions of years more advanced than our own. They need to believe in magic to understand the miracles these beings seemingly are able to accomplish and can’t understand that magic isn’t real.
Heber13 wrote:DJ,
Have you checked out the Faces East website? That might be something you and your wife look at together, while keeping your anonymity on this site as a outlet.
I have not heard of that site, but will check it out, thank you.
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