- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Christ fulfilled 2,000 years of “commandments” by giving the “Two Great Commandments”: Love God and love your neighbor. In the subsequent 2,000 years, not only have we reinstated much of the Christ-fulfilled laws of the OT, but we’ve added 12 volumes of “commandments” since.
Since this is a staylds site I’ll cite some interesting lds “commandments”. Other denominations have variations of this too, and some are still pretty close to just the two “great”.
What would Christ think of:
Rated-R movies?
Multiple piercings?
Shopping on Sunday?
Caffeinated soda?
Tea?
Reading BoM for 30 minutes every day?
Sleeveless shirts?
Bikinis?
😳 Home Teaching?
Taking the sacrament with the right hand?
Obviously, I could go on but you get the point. I’m not afraid to post these because there’s a spirit of the law and a letter of the law, and if you’re offended by my pointing it out….
My point is: Are we honoring the spirit of Christ’s teachings and the fulfillment of his prophetic mission and ministry by “adding on endlessly”?
Was His intention to hit “reset”, start with two commandments, and then, “Let’s go from there, what else can you or can’t you do? Let me count the ways”?
If we are not “to be commanded in all things”, why is there a commandment, rule, policy, cultural norm in seemingly every little possible thing?
Some people want to be commanded in all things. I used to think (maybe 15 years ago) that complying with that tendency in others was being charitable, thinking of them first. But I’m not sure that reinforcing that human tendency for checklists and outward over inward observance is doing anybody any favors. I’m of two minds on it. I don’t like to reinforce Pharisee behavior in others (and sometimes I get my fill of it). Now, if I can come up with a reason to comply, I do. Here go a few of mine: Rated-R movies?I generally don’t watch these because I they tend to be very dark themes, but I pay attention to content and make choices based more on that than anything else. Last R-rated movie I saw was probably Elizabeth I. I watched part of Crash, but it was so disturbing to see the way people treated each other that I didn’t finish it. Multiple piercings?I complied with this when first asked because it wasn’t important to me. Ironically, I used to wear 3 small gold hoops in each ear, but now I wear much more flashy jewelry. Shopping on Sunday?I had to work a lot of Sundays as a teenager, and I try not to make others work on Sundays. But if we are traveling or need to buy medicine, there’s a need. Caffeinated soda?I am steeped in Diet Coke. I don’t consider Mormon Doctrine (the book by BRM) to be a legit source of commandments. Tea?Herbal tea yes. I used to also drink iced tea and iced coffees (not a hot beverage), but I quit years ago. I like coffee ice cream and tiramisu. Reading BoM for 30 minutes every day?I don’t do this. I have read it many times, though. Just not every day in BOM specifically. Sleeveless shirts?The only conflict with these is the Gs. I see no specific reason they should be outlawed, though, and before Gs I wore them all the time. Bikinis? I do wear these, but I can see why it might not be a good example for the YW. I put a tank top over if swimming with YW.
Home Teaching?VTing – I’m inconsistent, but I get out at least quarterly in general. Taking the sacrament with the right hand?That’s never been a real rule. It’s based on the left hand being dishonorable from cultures in which the left hand is used to wipe your bottom where clean water is not available. Since I wash my hands after using the bathroom, I do not cotton to this superstition. I sometimes think of the difference between Bingley and Darcy in Pride & Prejudice. Darcy criticizes Bingley for always being willing to comply with a friend’s request, and Bingley says that Darcy would only value deliberate non-compliance with a friend’s request. Elizabeth comes to Bingley’s defense stating that it shows he has a good temperament. So like that discussion I sometimes feel torn. While I may tend to feel more like Darcy, I often wonder if Bingley isn’t right after all, and I try to push myself to be less Darcy and more Bingley.
I think this is an excellent question swimordie. To me all these things represent someone’s idea of exercising the “greater love.” (I think we can agree on Christ’s teachings reflecting love as the overriding rule.) The problem only enters in when these things are viewed as authoritative and absolute. I think good examples have been shown that there are exceptions to every rule. I like to look at these items as things that some people have found meaning in, and it may be helpful to ponder them myself for personal meaning.
In the end I agree we’ll all be better off if we let the question “what shows the greater love?” govern all of our decisions.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Some people want to be commanded in all things. I used to think (maybe 15 years ago) that complying with that tendency in others was being charitable, thinking of them first. But I’m not sure that reinforcing that human tendency for checklists and outward over inward observance is doing anybody any favors. I’m of two minds on it.
This is my point, I think, that I’d love to hear comments on. Facilitating and reinforcing the “human tendency for checklists” feels antithetical to Christ’s teachings, in my mind. Is it fostering a “stuckness” in stage 2 or 3 by doing this?
It seems Christ was teaching the importance of getting past stage 3. How are we honoring Christ by our complicity in facilitating this process?
Is that anyone else’s perception? Is it stage 3 thinking that is producing this conundrum in the first place? iow, am I being stage 3 by caring about this process? If so, what would Christ “advocate”? Or would he advocate at all?
My take? People are widely different and need widely different standards to succeed. Not one thing on the list really is a commandment – unless the person takes the suggestions of a prophet or apostle as the infallible word of God. Those who want to be commanded in all things can be; those who don’t can see these things as good general suggestions and pick and choose.
My summary of the list itself?
Every one of them really is a decent general standard, except the last one – which is stupid in our day now. I like to turn it around and ask:
Quote:Is there anything “bad” – in and of itself – without group think issues considered – in any of the things on the list?
Not in my mind – again, except for the last one, and that one is nowhere near a commandment and, as far as I know, has never been preached or encouraged from the general Church pulpit. (If it was or is in the future, I will ignore it totally. My youngest is left-handed, and she takes it with her left hand.) I see them as very trivial, so I have little problem saying, “Fine. No big deal.” They just aren’t important enough for me to bother getting concerned, since I believe in picking battles carefully. (again, except for the last one)
I was reading the Sermon on the Mount the other day when I had an insight about Matthew 5:13-20:
Quote:13″You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14″You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Wow! and Yikes! So it appears some people (The “Hippies”) were following Jesus and saying “Groovy, no commandments.” So Jesus up and says, “Dude, get this. I’m not erasing any commandments at all. If your righteousness isn’t more than the Mormons and the Evangelists, there’s no way you are going to enter into the kingdom of Heaven.”
Take it for what it’s worth. I personally find my practices are stricter now than they were in my traditional days. And yet I am not a fundamentalist, but an eclectic free-thinking flower child of God.
Good comments Tom! More righteous than the teachers of the law – I take that as fully understanding the spirit of the law… swimordie wrote:How are we honoring Christ by our complicity in facilitating this process?
Are we, simply by being members of the church (and not standing on a soap box) complicit?
That question will obviously have as many answers as there are people, and I’m sure there are varying degrees of complicity in the church as well.
My question is how can I honor Christ? My current answer is to choose the greater love – and teach wherever I see an opportunity that love is central to the gospel. Love never fails, love doesn’t judge (in the human sense), love doesn’t need a specific checklist (though checklists can be helpful to some people sometimes).
I think that God gives more letter of the law commandments based upon whether or not the people “get it”. Like the OT with the 10 commandments. It was most certainly a lower law cuz the children of Israel weren’t ready or couldn’t be trusted with living the higher law. I don’t spose it is any different today with regards to the church and its counsel as to how we should live. They see the saints kinda slipping into carnal security and they say “stay away from rated R movies” or ” one earing”. Now, would I go so far as to say that these “guidelines” are commandments? Well, yes and no. I think the first commandment is to follow the words of the prophets, so in that spirit I would say yes. But I think that there is always ones best judgment that sometimes sets the letter of the law aside. Even Christ did this when he went into the fields on the Sabbath.
Quote:This is my point, I think, that I’d love to hear comments on. Facilitating and reinforcing the “human tendency for checklists” feels antithetical to Christ’s teachings, in my mind. Is it fostering a “stuckness” in stage 2 or 3 by doing this?
It’s kind of a push and pull between personal growth and other people’s growth (and possibly organizational growth). OT1H, I personally grow when I humble myself by being persuadable in a way that is merely an inconvenience to me and not harmful to me or others. OTOH, when I comply with something that is meaningless, am I reinforcing the party who is making these meaningless requests? Will I be encouraging more silly requests? Are silly requests that make some people insiders and others outsiders really a good thing to reinforce?
So, what do I do? I comply, but I do everything I can to welcome others and be inclusive, especially those who don’t comply and may be regarded as outsiders as a result. And I pray in my heart for fewer trivial requests. I know there are some who want to be commanded in more things (maybe they feel like they are getting their money’s worth per command). Those people need to get a life, IMO. Just following Christ is restrictive enough. Add on to that the extra requirements of Mormonism, and it’s even more restrictive, and then top it off with an ultra-conservative interpretation, and well, you see where that’s going. OTOH, it can help you detach to some extent (unless you are one of the people who wants to wear your compliance like an in-your-face badge of honor).
swimordie wrote:Christ fulfilled 2,000 years of “commandments” by giving the “Two Great Commandments”: Love God and love your neighbor.
In the subsequent 2,000 years, not only have we reinstated much of the Christ-fulfilled laws of the OT, but we’ve added 12 volumes of “commandments” since.
My understanding from reading both Matt. 5: 17, 3 Ne. 12: 17-18 and Matt. 22:36-40, is that in the Two Great Commandments the Mosaic Law is fulfilled. This means that “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.” and “Thou shalt alove thy neighbour as thyself.” is a perfect revelation of God’s True Law, which was less clearly understood through Mosaic Law. This would show that the Mosaic Law was “fulfilled” and justified.
This goes with saying that the application of the Two Great Commandments would result in the keeping of the Ten Commandments as well.
As far as I understand, most modern-day commandments are for those who do not understand on their own how to truly love God and their neighbors, so the Lord teaches them in a way they will understand. I guess it goes to show how many people really don’t live up to the measure of revelation, which is most likely why we haven’t seen much of it as a Church in a while.
Line upon line.
My question is how can I honor Christ? If you are interested, I wrote the following on Mormon Matters a while ago:
“Praise, Honor & Glory Be to God” –
http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/07/praise-honor-glory-be-to-god/ Quote:My question is how can I honor Christ?
Yeah. I really think this has to be the focus or else following the nit picky rules has no meaning.
I used to teach at the MTC. I discussed/argued sweetly once with a sister missionary in the hall about the number of piercings she chose to wear to class. (this was years ago). Bless her heart, she didn’t understand why the rule was in place ( one in each ear) or see the value in the sacrifice. Nor was she ready yet to take responsibility for her own choice to serve and her own commitment to follow the rules whatever they were. She felt the restriction on her personal style…on her identity, she failed to see how obeying this silly guideline would enhance her service to Christ or see what Christ would do with her identity if she did sacrifice. It wasn’t really about the earrings at all,( other than keeping missionaries looking wholesome). She did take them out and came to class with a disgruntled expression for a few days. I hope that she eventually began to understand…or perhaps see blessings for doing something she might not have wanted to.
It seems when I see people who really are committed/devoted to Christ they maintain the vision of the spirit of the law and they have wisdom in their devoted obedience. But it is interesting how you also see them obeying the letter without reservation. Why is that? In my mind, it must be the state of their hearts. Perhaps it is the reason or vision behind the obedience that is the real measure of how one honors Christ. If I serve Christ and He asks me to give up tea, wouldn’t I give up tea without even thinking about it? I really don’t think it is about whether or not tea is “evil”. I think it is about obedience and training us to become trusted servants, not to mention lessons of self mastery. If one is just giving up tea without understanding what is really being asked of us (our hearts), then I do think the observance would feel meaningless. I didn’t give up tea because I think tea is of the devil. I gave it up because Christ asked me too and promised blessings if I would. I don’t really care about the tea…or the bikini or the tattoo. I mean what really do all those things give me? And its not really that drinking tea would make me “bad”. Although maybe I could argue this from some of the other items on that OP list. I guess I think this is part of humility….or maybe it is an exercise in developing humility.
There is a lot to what you say, Pollyseed. And there is a good spirit in your post. I hope I can do better at living that ideal. I do tell my children, “If somebody asks you to do something, and you don’t know it to be wrong, do it. It will be good for you.” Now if I can just practice what I preach. My friend, last month, asked me to write down 20 ways to spread kindness in the world. Easy, I gave him my list, then he said I’m supposed to do 2 of those things a day. I thought, ah dang it. For the record, I think Jesus would probably be down with drinking green tea since it’s so good for your health, and I also think he’d feel nausea from cut-off sleeves and Christian rock.
I’d like to take a stab at this since I think I have a different take than what’s been said.
Old-Timer wrote:People are widely different and need widely different standards to succeed.
A few people mentioned this, but I picked Ray’s quote. I’m very torn on this issue. I understand there are many SJs in the world, and that many people want the rules, and need standards to progress (or so they think). But in many ways, I feel like this is the very essence of the Gospel of Christ, to transcend the rules. If people haven’t learned to do this, that’s fine, but it is an essential step of life. By giving them the rules, and standards we are, in some sense, perpetuating the need for more (as hawk pointed out). This is antithetical to Christ’s message. The rules, and standards create a false spirituality, a false sense of self-righteousness (which we have a problem with in the church).I think you have a valid point swimordie. In some sense it feels like Christ gave us the law, why do we feel the need to add to it? In some ways, I think it might stem from fear. Are we afraid of allowing Christ to work in the lives of people? Are we afraid that they’ll do “bad” things while they’re figuring it out? Maybe we’re afraid that people aren’t responsible enough to understand the depth of Christ’s message. All of these things are just fine for a gov’t to worry about. But a church, IMHO, would be above that I would think.
I think this is the major point of my discomfort with the organizational tendencies in the church. I understand the need for the normal organizational and corporate rules in a normal, secular company. At my job, the gov’t, etc. But a church, our church, the one true church, the one based on Christ’s teachings, ought to, in fact, preach those as the ultimate Gospel, and allow it to work in the lives of people. The number of earrings in one’s ear doesn’t determine one’s relationship with Christ, neither does drinking a cup of coffee, or wearing a bikini.
Having said this, let me give credit where credit is due. I don’t think any of those things you mentioned are commandments. They might be viewed, in a strict sense, as helpers for the point I made above (as in helping us along the path to understanding the depth of Christ’s message and following it). There’s no question in my mind that our culture is largely responsible for their “commandment” status. And that is because we place way way way too much weight on authority. I remember when GBH mentioned the 1 piercing rule. It wasn’t given as a commandment. More like a suggestion to remain modest, as a sign of reverence. But almost immediately it was raised to commandment status. Same with rated “R” movies.
But for the record here’s my take on them:
Rated-R movies?I watched a total of 5 Rated-R movies before this last year (because of my TBM status). After I realized I didn’t care anymore, I realized something else. Most of them didn’t seem interesting to me. There are some exceptions. As soon as I didn’t care anymore I went out and got Shawshank Redemption, and then got Braveheart for Father’s Day. Both of these are absolutely brilliant and missing these moves is like not watching LOTR because of the fight scenes (which I know some TBMs have done). So much is to be learned from these masterpieces. Multiple piercings?Uhh, not an issue for me. Shopping on Sunday?Don’t much care about this one anymore, but I still don’t shop on Sunday. But then again I don’t shop on Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday either. I never bought into the argument that we didn’t shop on Sunday in order to not force others to work. Ummm, hospitals, fire fighters, policemen anyone? Caffeinated soda?Don’t drink much soda at all. Don’t like it much, and it really doesn’t make me feel good. Tea?I recognize this has some health benefits. I’ve never tried it and I have no idea why. I guess I was just never interested. Reading BoM for 30 minutes every day?I used to be diligent about this one. Every night from like age 14 on. Since I have discovered there was a world outside of Mormonism, I have been way way too engulfed in other books to read the BoM. I’ve already read it dozens of times, and there’s other great lit out there to be read. I felt every bit as much spiritual growth from reading “The Shack” as I did when I diligently read the BoM. Sleeveless shirts?Everyday baby!! J/K, Ooooh, that’s a scary thought! 😯 Bikinis?😳 Well, I don’t personally wear them, but I like to look at… well nevermind! 
Home Teaching?I’m pretty diligent about HT. I actually like HT as it gives me a family that I feel inclined to help. As if I’m their “keeper” so to speak. Taking the sacrament with the right hand?I always thought this had something to do with the right hand being the “covenant hand.” This was probably a myth. I never considered it a big deal anyway.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.