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Of course our questions and statements always reveal more about ourselves than anything else. Inquiring Mind understandably comes from a specific worldview, and then when things are shaken up there is some grasping for bearings and some kicking at the rocks to find the stable ground. It is easy to assume everyone else in the church views things generally in the same way that we do, but I’d now say more often than not that is simply not the case. I have found it extremely helpful to recognize that I don’t and I won’t see things the same as people around me, and I don’t need to. Life is an individual journey as much as a group experience, one of the goals is to learn to be productive along side of people who see things a little differently.
SilentDawning wrote:Yes. I agree with Inquiring Mind on this. Bruce R McConkine in Mormon Doctrine distinguished between prophet large “P” and prophet small “p”. I do think Ray, the question is a good one — I’ve wondered how the Q12 and FP view themselves given the actual limitations they know exist on their relationship with God, and oft-times huge expectations of the members that they are supernatural, have seen Christ, etcetera. The fact that we are told in various conference talks not to ask about their special witness further throws more fuel into the question.
I recall as a youth being told the story of Lorenzo Snow. He saw Jesus in the Temple.
I recall a Sunday School teacher who was once in the Stake Presidency. Since he held positions at the Stake level I basically thought that everything spoken was gospel truth. I remember he made mention of regular interviews and check ups on the ward and Stake members. He felt that Jesus himself would appear to the Prophet on a regular basis and have a full on check up interview.
There was once a time that I truly believed this. Deep down there is a portion of me that would like to believe this.
If I were to rank my current belief scale of the church on a scale from 1 – 10 ( 1 being it is pretty much not true and 10 being t’s totally true) I would give myself about a 3.
That is enough for me to kind of stick around. It is also enough for me to have some appreciation for the stories and beliefs. It is enough for me to transition into Fowler stage 5.
Do all of the top 15 men of the church truly believe that they are prophets seers and revelators? I think they all do believe this.
There are plenty of people who never leave the realm of Fowler Stage 3.
Even if one of the fifteen had a major faith issue I think they would still play along. They have families, children, grand children and some cases maybe even great grand children. They know that if they left it would shake up the life of their families as well as so many people in the church. They would gladly play along to help keep the faith of others alive.
Quote:Inquiring Mind understandably comes from a specific worldview, and then when things are shaken up there is some grasping for bearings and some kicking at the rocks to find the stable ground.
It is helpful to understand the worldview that youth and YSAs are raised with and the things that missionaries teach investigators about Prophets. On my mission I taught investigators that Pres. Hinckley was a prophet the same way that Adam, Moses, Elijah, and Peter were Prophets. I would totally have led people to believe that Pres. Hinckely could part the Great Salt Lake after the manner of Moses, or heal the sick after the manner of Peter, or call down fire from heaven after the manner of Elijah if I thought that would help people become converted. I wouldn’t have put any limits on GBH’s supernatural powers. I had a friend at an institute of religion back home who said that if the Prophet needed to know your name, he would know your name without having to ask for it. I would assert that most members of the Church ascribe many more supernatural powers to the Prophets than they themselves would ever assert that they had. The reasoning is simple: if President Monson is a Prophet just like Elijah was a Prophet, then President Monson should be able to do the same things that Elijah did, including calling down fire from heaven.
I understand that this is part of the demythologizing process. My view as a TBM (as it is for nearly all TBMs) was that that the Prophets can do almost literally anything. When I learn that they can’t and don’t claim to, I have to wonder what they CAN do and why I was led to believe that they have powers that they don’t claim to have.
Quote:I’ve wondered how the Q12 and FP view themselves given the actual limitations they know exist on their relationship with God, and oft-times huge expectations of the members that they are supernatural, have seen Christ, etcetera. The fact that we are told in various conference talks not to ask about their special witness further throws more fuel into the question.
I was recently at a large gathering of YSAs in the basketball arena at Utah State, and Elder Holland spoke. It occurred to me that most of my fellow students in that congregation would have done literally anything that Elder Holland personally asked them to do. If Elder Holland told a guy to drop out of his Ph. D. program, dump his girlfriend, and get a job at Wal-Mart, he would do it. If he told a guy and a girl who had never met to start dating, they would start dating. If he told a girl to sell her car and change her major to statistics, she would do it. I was a little unsettled by the fact that not even the U.S. President has that kind of power. You can’t buy that kind of power. The point of this story is this: I’m willing to believe that Elder Holland doesn’t claim to have that kind of direct conduit to God,
but members of the Church believe that he does. Whether this mismatch between attributed power and claimed power is by design or accidental and undesirable is difficult for me to say at this point. My understanding is that it’s inappropriate to ask a member of the FP or Q12 if they have seen Christ. Given the teaching that the salvation of every individual depends on their acceptance of the FP and Q12 as Prophets, and that many in the NT claimed to have seen the resurrected Christ, I think that the question is entirely appropriate. I think that people’s avoidance of the question demonstrates that they are afraid that the answer is no.
Quote:I think the post title question is a good question, but I think the premise of the actual post is way off-base.
Ray, I’d be interested to hear your response to the title of this post as if you hadn’t read what I had written about it.
InquiringMind wrote:My view as a TBM (as it is for nearly all TBMs) was that that the Prophets can do almost literally anything. When I learn that they can’t and don’t claim to, I have to wonder what they CAN do and why I was led to believe that they have powers that they don’t claim to have.
Of course I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think I would have ever qualified as “nearly all TBM’s” in this statement
InquiringMind wrote:It occurred to me that most of my fellow students in that congregation would have done literally anything that Elder Holland personally asked them to do. If Elder Holland told a guy to drop out of his Ph. D. program, dump his girlfriend, and get a job at Wal-Mart, he would do it. If he told a guy and a girl who had never met to start dating, they would start dating. If he told a girl to sell her car and change her major to statistics, she would do it.
Again, just as a point of reference, I believe there are many (my opinion most) members that would not follow these type of instructions. I have a real example that is similar. A few years after my mission my mission pres came to my home stake as a visiting GA. After the meeting I went to say hi. He asked me “Elder, are you married?” I said no. He asked “would you like to be?” I said of course. He said “hang around for a minute, let me see if I can introduce you to someone.” I was uneasy about the idea, and frankly I didn’t want to date someone that some authority figure picked out for me. I wouldn’t have cared if it was President Hinkley himself, I knew I was entitled to the personal revelation regarding who my wife might be, and I was perfectly happy to do the footwork myself.
FYI, FWIW. We all know about the tendency to project our views onto others.
InquiringMind, I’m going to be as blunt and frank as I can be in this very short comment: 1) You surely are right about some members, and you surely are wrong about others.
2) You now are talking about something TOTALLY different than the title question of the post. That leads me to believe strongly that you don’t care all that much about the title question of the post – or, as you stated in it, you’ve made up your mind that their belief is a sign of delusion or dishonesty.
I think the answer to the title question is very simple:
Quote:Yes, they do.
However, until you deal with their own definition of that word and not the one you want to promote (which pretty much nobody here accepts / believes), we’re going to be spinning our wheels.
There is at least one other post in our archives that deals with the concept of what constitutes a prophet. I’ll try to find it and bump it up for discussion. Until then, I would suggest sticking to the title question – or changing the focus of this discussion clearly and intentionally to address a different question and/or topic.
Orson wrote:InquiringMind wrote:It occurred to me that most of my fellow students in that congregation would have done literally anything that Elder Holland personally asked them to do. If Elder Holland told a guy to drop out of his Ph. D. program, dump his girlfriend, and get a job at Wal-Mart, he would do it. If he told a guy and a girl who had never met to start dating, they would start dating. If he told a girl to sell her car and change her major to statistics, she would do it.
Again, just as a point of reference, I believe there are many (my opinion most) members that would not follow these type of instructions.
Back in 2002, Elder Perry put one hand on my shoulder, and the other on my roommate’s, and told us that we had one year to find a wife and get married. My roommate accomplished this. I did not. E Perry did not know that I was gay, and that this would be quite difficult if not impossible for me. That didn’t challenge my faith in him as a TBM at the time (I was trying diligently to change my orientation), but even then, I wasn’t gonna just get married in one year because an apostle challenged me to do so. I guess even then, I felt that God knew my situation and understood, even if an apostle didn’t. Why didn’t he discern my situation? Why did he still challenge me? I don’t know.
turinturambar wrote:I felt that God knew my situation and understood, even if an apostle didn’t. Why didn’t he discern my situation? Why did he still challenge me? I don’t know.
Because apostles are still men, and they still see through a glass darkly.
InquiringMind wrote:The point of this story is this: I’m willing to believe that Elder Holland doesn’t claim to have that kind of direct conduit to God,
but members of the Church believe that he does. Whether this mismatch between attributed power and claimed power is by design or accidental and undesirable is difficult for me to say at this point.
There is no design to have a mismatch of anything. It is a matter of faith. Everyone in their journey must decide for themselves what a prophet is and how it is used in their journey.IM, you will find many people on the spectrum literally following every word and others that think for themselves, and lots of stories because people like stories to affirm their beliefs.
But if you study their words and their teachings…I think it is clear that not only do they believe themselves to be prophets, but they believe it is a key teaching to the religion.
The miracles come in terms of food storage stories and strong feelings in the heart.
Check this out:
https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/we-need-living-prophets?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/we-need-living-prophets?lang=eng As wayfarer has taught, faith has an element of trust. How much trust can you put on the prophets? Is it possible there is too much put on prophets?
Where is your testimony of the prophets?
I have a weak testimony of the prophets. Their role as business managers makes their overall role confusing to me. Particularly when they behave more like business managers than spiritual leaders. Fwiw, SD,I would say they act as business leaders as much as they act like spiritual leaders – because they run both a church (non-profit) and a corporation (for profit). Accepting that they wear both hats is a big part of reconciliation with regard to who they are and how they see themselves, imo.
Quote:3) The 15 Prophets of the Church are indeed Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. They can work miracles (including healing the sick by the laying on of hands,) cast out devils, walk on water, translate ancient records better than scholars can, foretell specific calamities or prevent specific calamities by issuing warnings, etc., but they do none of these things, and they don’t tell us why they don’t do these things even though they can do them. They also know why the Book of Abraham as translated by Joseph Smith doesn’t match the Egyptologists’ version, and they know why the priesthood ban on blacks existed, and the know why Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and polyandry, and they could prevent the apostasy of thousands of God’s children by simply tellings us the answers to these questions, but they don’t tell us for reasons we wouldn’t understand.
– which apostle or prophet has walked on Water. The only I am aware of one who tried, Peter, but he lacked enough faith to do so beyond just a moment’s time
– This quote above makes a lot of assumptions which while they are what I was taught by Sunday School teachers and local leaders does not match the scriptures or what the general authorities have taught. I think your definition of prophets, while culturally taught, is not the church’s definition. In the New Testament for example, outside of the Book of Revelation, we find very little future prophesy and yet these men claimed a special call as apostles and claimed to be set apart with these powers and gifts. I think long foretold prophecies are the exception not the rule. Seems more like Peter and early Leaders were much more apt to receive revelation for current needs in the church and teaching the basics then big lighting bolt revelations.
– you also make assumptions on the issues at the end which are not the only way they can be understood.
So in conclusion you have left 3 options which in actuality there are several other options as well that give a whole bunch more flexibility to your assumptions.
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