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If Jesus wasnt’ a real person, then that would end my internal stuggle right then and there. I find no satisfaction in believing in the idea of a Jesus or any other mythical character. And if just believing the concepts he taught were the only important thing, then frankly it seems that I could get them from a wide variety of sources. I believe that Jesus was a real person. And for now I feel that the LDS explanation for who Jesus is feels truer than any other I have found in mainstream Christianity. If its not true, then I can’t see myself staying a Christian. I think I would believe in a supreme being and that I would continue to communicate and learn thru spiritual means. I would most likely stay away from organized religion and only seek for truths that make me a better person and help to explain earth life.
@poppy: What if Jesus was a real person but he didn’t do or say any of the things in the NT? What if he was a real person but everything we know about him was made up?
swimordie wrote:@poppy:
What if Jesus was a real person but he didn’t do or say any of the things in the NT? What if he was a real person but everything we know about him was made up?
My reaction would be the same.
I guess my observation is that, at this point, I don’t think it’s provable whether he was a real person or not. Maybe, in the future, there will be some discovery made that “proves” that Jesus was a real person but… My thinking is just that: what do you do with the concept as it is now: unknowable? Seeing isn’t believing, believing is seeing (from the Santa Clause movie). People believe because they want to see, I know I do. We could be “making stuff up” in our minds, I really don’t think it matters – if our outcome is to truly become more loving. I don’t care if scriptures are literal or metaphorical (honestly I think they’re a lot of both), IF they teach lessons that become spiritually valuable when practically applied, I want to ponder them.
Poppyseed wrote:If Jesus wasnt’ a real person, then that would end my internal stuggle right then and there. I find no satisfaction in believing in the idea of a Jesus or any other mythical character. And if just believing the concepts he taught were the only important thing, then frankly it seems that I could get them from a wide variety of sources.
I believe that Jesus was a real person. And for now I feel that the LDS explanation for who Jesus is feels truer than any other I have found in mainstream Christianity. If its not true, then I can’t see myself staying a Christian. I think I would believe in a supreme being and that I would continue to communicate and learn thru spiritual means. I would most likely stay away from organized religion and only seek for truths that make me a better person and help to explain earth life.
Now you’re seeing the transition many of us have gone through…and even though you may see the approach above as a “bad” thing, I find it to be a very good, freeing, and logical approach. If “God” is “all that is good,” and “love,” it changes things, but not in a bad way (IMO). Personally, I find when studying history, and particularly the history of religion, it makes complete sense that the “dogma” that is assigned to religions was instituted by political/religious leaders for control of the members.
The concept of unconditional love is much more consistent with what Jesus most likely taught, and simply feels better than the cog-dis of “God loves you as long as you do such and such…” That “such-and-such” is man-made, IMHO.
I like the way you put that rix. that’s what it is all about, unconditional love, love god, love your neighbor, by the way that last scripture isn’t qualified in anyway, it’s universal Hi All, I have been out of town for awhile in Sunny Florida. It was wonderful and we are serious about retiring there. Now back in Iowa freezing but was looking forward to seeing what discussions I have missed here. This one interested me because my gay son just sent me this link about an atheist who had an out of body experience and it made him believe in Jesus and the afterlife again:
It has 10 parts but is amazing. Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0 Once you start watching you will not be able to stop. He seemed very happy and thanked me for praying for him. It is of an atheist Austrialian lifeguard with a wonderful sense of humor. It really strengthened my faith in Jesus Christ.Rix wrote:Poppyseed wrote:If Jesus wasnt’ a real person, then that would end my internal stuggle right then and there. I find no satisfaction in believing in the idea of a Jesus or any other mythical character. And if just believing the concepts he taught were the only important thing, then frankly it seems that I could get them from a wide variety of sources.
I believe that Jesus was a real person. And for now I feel that the LDS explanation for who Jesus is feels truer than any other I have found in mainstream Christianity. If its not true, then I can’t see myself staying a Christian. I think I would believe in a supreme being and that I would continue to communicate and learn thru spiritual means. I would most likely stay away from organized religion and only seek for truths that make me a better person and help to explain earth life.
Now you’re seeing the transition many of us have gone through…and even though you may see the approach above as a “bad” thing, I find it to be a very good, freeing, and logical approach. If “God” is “all that is good,” and “love,” it changes things, but not in a bad way (IMO). Personally, I find when studying history, and particularly the history of religion, it makes complete sense that the “dogma” that is assigned to religions was instituted by political/religious leaders for control of the members.
The concept of unconditional love is much more consistent with what Jesus most likely taught, and simply feels better than the cog-dis of “God loves you as long as you do such and such…” That “such-and-such” is man-made, IMHO.
Today has been a really sucky day with the mormon church. And I come here and read this. How do you know how I feel, Rix? How do you know that I see the “above approach” as a bad thing? Thank you for judging me and ending with a smile. Its so…..mormon.
Rix wrote:If “God” is “all that is good,” and “love,” it changes things, but not in a bad way (IMO). Personally, I find when studying history, and particularly the history of religion, it makes complete sense that the “dogma” that is assigned to religions was instituted by political/religious leaders for control of the members.
The concept of unconditional love is much more consistent with what Jesus most likely taught, and simply feels better than the cog-dis of “God loves you as long as you do such and such…” That “such-and-such” is man-made, IMHO.
Ah, but Rix, you’re throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Jesus taught us to love and not to take vengeance, but he also taught that vengeance belonged to God – that’s why we can be free to forgive unconditionally and still rest assured that justice will be served in the end. Otherwise those who don’t subscribe to the “all you need is love” philosophy would use force to get ahead, and that’s simply not fair. God says they won’t stay ahead for long. The early Christians understood this! (See Romans 12:19).
God is more than love, he is also justice – and that message, properly applied, would not benefit the political leaders in any way. Instead it is fuel for dissenters, dying as innocent martyrs rather than bow down to an oppressive dictator. Surely the persecution of early Christians by Rome would clarify that. Christianity was hijacked and perverted, I certainly agree. But the core message of Jesus and his early followers (as described in Paul’s writings and the gospels) remains to this day. I can’t think of anything in the NT which adds the “as long as you do such and such” clause that you speak of – that most certainly is added by political opportunists, but that happened after the Bible.
My point is that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible is not a politically-motivated pagan mythical construct. He was a real man, I believe, who stirred up real waves against the system, gathered real followers, and left a real mark in history. Just as it would be impossible for the early Mormon movement to exist if Joseph Smith was fictitious, it would be impossible for the early Christian movement to exist if Jesus was fictitious.
Interesting thread. Other “evidence” us Mormons are forced to consider regarding Jesus Christ is this (paraphrasing): “After all those other testimonies of Christ, here is ours… He Lives! We know because we saw that son of a gun, err, Son of a God… sitting on the right hand of the Father, and there was a gold street the color of amber or gold or something very shiny and bright and we weren’t drinking anything or smoking anything when we saw Him. Yep, we saw Him alright, He is a real person and he looks like a man and this is our testimony.” –Joe and Sid.
And Mormons don’t just think the NT testifies of Christ. What about the OT? What about Ezekial? Now, he probably WAS smoking something, but he gives a pretty cool testimony that goes something like this: “Dude, I saw Him and it was like FOUR dudes, dude. Four faces, I swear, dude. Like one was this Lion, cuz he’s like the King you know like the Lion is king of the jungle, and then an EAGLE, dude. I swear… think about it, dude, cuz he like flies between heaven and earth and he’s not the main God dude, but he’s like the Mediator dude that we have to go through to talk to God and everything, I know NARLY, huh, dude. And then one face was like a big ol’ ram… no, not like a Ram Charger, dude, like a SHEEP, man, like they use to sacrifice… sacrifice, get it, dude? He sacrifices for US, dude, I’m telling ya. Or maybe it was an Ox… dude, I can’t remember but it was like something you sacrifice. And the fourth face was like a man, dude. A MAN… cuz, man He’s a man, he’s real, dude, I’m tellin’ ya. Four faces, ONE dude. Far out. Pass me the pipe, dude.” –Zeke
What about the Brother of Jared? He wanted to make some rocks light up so Christ gave him the finger.
As for me… I like Jesus to be a real guy. He’s much better than Santa Claus.
Poppyseed wrote:Rix wrote:Poppyseed wrote:If Jesus wasnt’ a real person, then that would end my internal stuggle right then and there. I find no satisfaction in believing in the idea of a Jesus or any other mythical character. And if just believing the concepts he taught were the only important thing, then frankly it seems that I could get them from a wide variety of sources.
I believe that Jesus was a real person. And for now I feel that the LDS explanation for who Jesus is feels truer than any other I have found in mainstream Christianity. If its not true, then I can’t see myself staying a Christian. I think I would believe in a supreme being and that I would continue to communicate and learn thru spiritual means. I would most likely stay away from organized religion and only seek for truths that make me a better person and help to explain earth life.
Now you’re seeing the transition many of us have gone through…and even though you may see the approach above as a “bad” thing, I find it to be a very good, freeing, and logical approach. If “God” is “all that is good,” and “love,” it changes things, but not in a bad way (IMO). Personally, I find when studying history, and particularly the history of religion, it makes complete sense that the “dogma” that is assigned to religions was instituted by political/religious leaders for control of the members.
The concept of unconditional love is much more consistent with what Jesus most likely taught, and simply feels better than the cog-dis of “God loves you as long as you do such and such…” That “such-and-such” is man-made, IMHO.
Today has been a really sucky day with the mormon church. And I come here and read this. How do you know how I feel, Rix? How do you know that I see the “above approach” as a bad thing? Thank you for judging me and ending with a smile. Its so…..mormon.
Hmm, I’m sorry if you took it that way Poppy. The last thing I ever want to do is judge how another feels — especially when we’re trying to communicate on an internet blog. I said “you
maysee…,” as many Mormons I know “see” taking Jesus’ life as metaphor as a bad, or deflating thing — where I see it as a positive. I personally believe that most of what we read in the Bible, as far as dogma goes, does not come from the mouth of Jesus. What I do believe came from the mouth of Jesus is simple unconditional love and forgiveness of others. I hope you’ll forgive me for sending a message to you I did not intend.
😳 MapleLeaf wrote:Ah, but Rix, you’re throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Jesus taught us to love and not to take vengeance, but he also taught that vengeance belonged to God…
Again, ML, we’re probably on different pages about this. I don’t give much credence to the NT — especially letters from Paul. I think there are some good teachings in his letters, and I like to take whatever is good into my life…but I do throw out teachings that come from fear. I don’t see “God” as vengeful, or jealous, in any way. Pure love isn’t capable of that, IMO.
But I understand that I am not normal, and in the minority. I respect the position that you, and everybody here has…even if different than mine. Really!
Poppyseed wrote:Thank you for judging me and ending with a smile. Its so…..mormon.
Btw Poppy, I hope you don’t judge the church for anything I did…I’m probably about the least “traditional Mormon” here! I hope the church doesn’t get a bad rap for my actions!
😆 Poppyseed wrote:How do you know that I see the “above approach” as a bad thing?
I’m really sorry Rix’s post hit you wrong, but I just assumed he was merely generously allowing for the possibility that you might see things differently from him. I think he was reserving judgment and merely allowing for the possibility.
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