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mercyngrace wrote:
On the other hand, what should they say to discourage the repeating of these FPRs that wouldn’t sound as if it diminished the spiritual experiences they have had?
Well said. It’s not as easy as we sometimes assume. And spirituality isn’t as easily communicated as your breakfast menu. About the best that can be hoped for is that some brave soul will emphasis the spiritual equality that exists between the apostles and the other saints (and all humankind). “I know, as do many of you, that Jesus Christ lives.” “I bear my special witness, as do thousands of children of God today, that…”
observant wrote:I was in a meeting (at work) this week and a story was shared about David B. Haight. He pointed to a picture of the Savior and said (I wont’ quote) The Savior I know had a small neck and his clothing more tannish than red. (end of non-quote) This leaving the impression that he had actually seen Jesus Christ. This being told to us third hand. From Elder Haight to another church official who shared it with the person in our meeting (and his son).
No idea what I think of it really. It’s not something I find particularly faith building but I think for a lot of people it is. Maybe if it was first hand…
I don’t really get much out of such 3rd or 4th hand accounts. I’m not saying it did or did not happen exactly as this person in the meeting relayed it, or that others may need to hear such accounts…just that for me, there is no way for me to know if it has any merit to it, so I dismiss accounts like this as any kind of “proof” that our apostles have seen the same savior and can all describe him the same.I don’t doubt Elder Haight had a close and personal relationship with his Savior. I still believe all the 15 prophets, seers, and revelators are holy and wise men. But I don’t think they all have been personally visited. And I don’t think it changes who they are.
mercyngrace wrote:
On the other hand, what should they say to discourage the repeating of these FPRs that wouldn’t sound as if it diminished the spiritual experiences they have had?I haven’t seen the Savior myself, but let me tell you about this other really cool experience I had . . .(Nice seeing you, mercyme!)
All the Best!
–Consiglieri
Howdy stranger 
Something I have been thinking a lot about lately is how restricted we are by the unbelieving hearts of others. The Savior had to cast people out of Jairus’ house in order to raise his daughter. Then in 3 Nephi 19, He says that He could not show certain miracles to the Jews in Jerusalem because of their lack of faith.
Could it be the unbelieving nature of the audience that inhibits prophets and apostles from sharing profound spiritual experiences?
In Joseph Smith’s day, New England was on fire with religious zeal. In our day, the fastest growing ideological group seems to be atheists.
Just stuff tumbling around in my noggin.
Here are the verses from 3 Nephi – just for reference.
Quote:And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying he came again to the disciples, and said unto them: So great faith have I never seen among all the Jews; wherefore I could not show unto them so great miracles, because of their unbelief.
Verily I say unto you, there are none of them that have seen so great things as ye have seen;
neither have they heard so great things as ye have heard. consiglieri wrote:I have been a member of the Church for 33-years and used to believe with all my heart that the apostles had indeed seen the Savior, imagining it as a rite of passage to apostleship.
Over the years, though, I have listened closely and heard strong indications (such as from President Hinckley) that this in fact is not the case. (Or consider Elder McConkie’s final testimony in General Conference.)
I have no problem with this. The problem I have is with the manner in which this canard is propagated in the Church, even by the apostles themselves, who try to convey that they have seen Jesus Christ while not actually saying they have seen Jesus Christ, usually couched in an “apostolic witness” with a strong emphasis on the word “know.”
It seems apparent that the apostles know the message they are conveying and the faith-promoting rumour they are keeping alive by doing so.
I find this somewhat disconcerting.
All the Best!
–Consiglieri
Perhaps, one of the reasons the apostles may suggest that they have seen the savior, is their personal belief that as an apostle, it is part of their calling. What would one do if selected as an apostle and hasn’t had that witness? I imagine it might be quite lonely being in that position. Who is an apostle going to talk to about their real feelings/experiences, particularly if they are outside of the expected norm. They can’t even talk to their wives about their issues, let alone the other apostles. They are probably wondering…….”has Elder so an so seen Jesus, cuz I haven’t. hmmmm, wonder what I am doing wrong.” How often do they really compare notes with one another? Who is going to be the first to confess that he hasn’t seen Jesus? I think the expectations placed on them are huge.
Fwiw, Jarla, I believe strongly that the apostles don’t lie or mislead intentionally about things like this – or about pretty much anything – when they talk to the membership about their experiences. Paul H. Dunn is notable as an exception, not as the rule. Generally, either a member interprets something to mean what it probably didn’t mean – or some rumor is started by someone as a faith-promoting rumor. I hate those, but there are SO many of them that I am left just shaking my head in consternation when I hear the latest one – or a re-tread of one that I first heard decades ago. I don’t think new apostles are called based on the current apostles’ belief that the new apostle has seen the Savior.
I don’t think most new apostles assume all the other apostles have seen the Savior, so the new apostle will at some point in the future – but that is the weakest of my “I don’t thinks”. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if some new apostles assume that.
I have no way of knowing about any of these things from my own experiences, but I am fairly confident about the my first statement above.
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