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Well I’m off to today’s opera, plus the pre-opera meeting I attend with the conductor. I’m doing a social experiment today – wearing a non-white shirt just to see how many comments I get. Ever since my calling as EQP, I’ve gone totally orthoprax in my wardrobe, but the fact is, I enjoy wearing my other shirts too so today will be the first time in months. Probably no one will say anything, but I’m curious. Funny how there’s even a stigma around what color shirt men wear… amateurparent wrote:
The problem isn’t going to the opera. Going to the opera is a healthy thing to do.The problem is being told that I will be joining the opera and the rest of my life will be focused on preparing for opera, performing in opera events, memorizing lines, mentoring opera singers and constantly advertising every day for the next operatic event. It is being told I need to give away a certain number of tickets at work .. and knowing that my colleagues all prefer hip-hop and heavy metal.
And recognizing that while I don’t hate opera, I would like to listen to some hip-hop, rock and country and figure out what music I really do prefer. And feeling a little uneasy when I realize I don’t really like opera very much.
This!
Like it or not, my whole life revolves around the opera.
This whole thread would be offensive to most of the people who attend the opera. The idea that it may not be the best kind of musical theater is threatening. Even classifying opera as “musical theater” – i.e. not affirming that it’s in its own class and is therefore incomparable – is threatening. Even worse is the idea that an avid fan of opera could sour on it. This is fun!
Reuben wrote:
This whole thread would be offensive to most of the people who attend the opera. The idea that it may not be the best kind of musical theater is threatening. Even classifying opera as “musical theater” – i.e. not affirming that it’s in its own class and is therefore incomparable – is threatening. Even worse is the idea that an avid fan of opera could sour on it.This is fun!
The thing is though that not all opera lovers like the same thing. I sat through Parsifal by Wagner and loved it but HMS Pinafore by Gilbert and Sullivan left me cold.
Old Timer wrote:I have a good friend who attended the LDS Church for 30 years simply to support his wife – and because he didn’t have a different community of believers he loved more. He didn’t believe the doctrine, but he loved his wife.
Oh? What’s his StayLDS user ID?
Anyone (other than LookingHard) remember that Simpsons episode (Make Room for Lisa) where Homer does everything Lisa likes in order to make her happy. Lisa has an epiphany where she starts to see things from Homer’s perspective:
Lisa: Oh, no, now I’m dad! [background, from Homer’s point of view, fades in. He’s at a ballet] Oh, and I’m at a stupid boring ballet. [yawns, and the camera’s “eye” closes. We hear snoring noises]
Lisa: [in hallucination] Dad! Wake up! [camera “eye” opens] Your snoring is disturbing the dancers. [camera looks at the dancers, who are staring at Homer, tapping their feet. Then it pans back to Lisa. We can see Homer reflected in her eyes] How can you embarrass me like this? Oh, you won’t sit through anything that doesn’t have car crashes.
Lisa: [as Homer] I’m sorry, honey. [to “himself”] Gee, why is Lisa so mad at me? [twists his ballet program] I only came to this dump so I could be with her. And what happened to my big sandwich?
…
Lisa: Gee, I should cut Dad some slack. After all, he did take me to the ballet, and the Smithsonian exhibit. In fact, he takes me lots of places he hates.
amateurparent wrote:The problem isn’t going to the opera. Going to the opera is a healthy thing to do.
The problem is being told that I will be joining the opera and the rest of my life will be focused on preparing for opera, performing in opera events, memorizing lines, mentoring opera singers and constantly advertising every day for the next operatic event. It is being told I need to give away a certain number of tickets at work .. and knowing that my colleagues all prefer hip-hop and heavy metal.
And recognizing that while I don’t hate opera, I would like to listen to some hip-hop, rock and country and figure out what music I really do prefer. And feeling a little uneasy when I realize I don’t really like opera very much.
😆 And to extend the analogy. Do I enjoy going to the opera? I guess, I dunno. Do I enjoy going to the exact same opera again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again… ?
:think: Knowing there are other operas out there that I haven’t seen yet weighs on the decision. Heck, maybe I could even write my own opera.Great all this talk about opera and now I really want to see a fat lady give the closing prayer during the
firstsession of general conference so I can get on with the rest of my weekend. (this is where I remind people that humor is sometimes offensive :angel: :angel: )nibbler wrote:
Great all this talk about opera and now I really want to see a fat lady give the closing prayer during thefirstsession of general conference so I can get on with the rest of my weekend. (this is where I remind people that humor is sometimes offensive :angel: :angel: )At least women can give prayer in conference and sacrament meeting now!
The only problem I have with your humor is I have a hard time not waking every one up at work when I have a big uncontrollable laugh after reading one of your posts.
I haven’t read the whole thread, so I hope I’m not repeating anyone… but I think it is a good analogy on many levels.
For one…my dad loved opera and I hated it. Then I went to college and took a humanities class that explained the opera to me. Once I knew the story, and the background …. I was amazed at how I fell in love with Madame Butterfly.
In other words…it took effort to appreciate it…but once I did…I found it moving on an emotional level and very powerful, and I don’t think that was all in my head because others love it too. I also know some people hate the opera, and may never have the reaction I had. But I did, when I took time to try to understand it. I honestly don’t think it is that simple that others who don’t like opera simply don’t try. But…that does make a difference for some, like me.
It isn’t something I could just plop down, listen to, and get it. But…for many reasons as people stated above…the value of opera is kind of enduring because it is not so easy to “get”.
Joseph Smith wrote:Lectures on Faith 6:5– Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for, from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.
There is a good analogy in that somewhere between church and opera (besides the vibrato in hymns
And if my wife loved it…I would work to appreciate it. Even if I’d never appreciate it as much as I appreciate NCAA basketball. But I would sacrifice to enjoy the opera to be with my wife. I think if I learned to appreciate even parts of it…it would make it less miserable when I go to support her.
My wife does this with football with me…she tries to learn names and sports news stories and talks to me about it…I think because she cares about me, so she makes the effort.
I agree that I could definitely learn to appreciate it by putting in more effort. Part of the problem for me is that the more I learn about the history, the more I see some of the deceptive practices with the origins of the opera, including certain falsehoods that were spread, possible plagiarisms from other sources, racist nd sexist practices that continue to influence the cast to this day, etc. that it makes it difficult to just sit and listen to the supposed beautiful arias without also hearing undertones of the origins as well. But at the very least, I can try to decide what I want to get out of the opera (as selfish as that may seem at times), and go to continue to spend time with my wife, while also trying to make the whole effort not be totally worthless for me. And if I can somehow be a positive voice for change, that would be great, but I’ve never had much of a loud voice that is capable of swaying others. Wagner had a lot of ” racist and sexist practises ” in it as you put it, but one can still enjoy his music. He’s often accused of being a Nazi despite living before the NSDAP was set up. Are all Wagnerians racists and anti-Semites? No, they’re not. (He was largely banned in Israel though – although he has been played there most recently.) With the LDS, the sexism is still there but the worst of the racism is largely gone now.
While I can agree that sometimes it takes effort to appreciate something I also think that isn’t always the healthiest way to look at things. The idea that sometimes it takes effort to appreciate something is often warped when applied to all things church, “you don’t appreciate it because you haven’t put in enough effort” can come out the other end. How do you know when you’ve put in enough effort? When you finally start appreciating it.
It’s okay to not like the opera and for some people no amount of study is going to change that.
The new movie about Florence Foster Jenkins will make people more aware of (a Hollywood version of) her story. Maybe learning about (a Hollywood version of) her will help people appreciate her… well maybe not the singing but her spirit that drove her to sing. Still, putting in that extra effort to understand the person may help you develop an appreciation for what she did but it may not help with maintaining the desire to attend her performances once a week for the rest of your life. The novelty will wear off. There are other singers to put in the effort to appreciate.
Jenkins was awful and everybody but her knew it at the time. Sometimes you can’t be something you’re not. Opera singing requires training but it is also a talent some people – such as myself – will never have. It’s no use pretending otherwise. I think there is a difference between…”you can sometimes appreciate it more when you know more or put energy to appreciate it more” and…
“You will always love it if you just try a little”.
The last one assumes it is a formula for success for everyone. The first one is just sharing what has sometimes worked for a person.
I think that applies to advice about the church experience. It may help to put in effort at church to appreciate it. That doesn’t mean if you don’t that you’re the problem.
However…it sometimes depends on how that message is delivered, so it doesn’t place the blame somewhere.
amateurparent wrote:
The problem isn’t going to the opera. Going to the opera is a healthy thing to do.The problem is being told that I will be joining the opera and the rest of my life will be focused on preparing for opera, performing in opera events, memorizing lines, mentoring opera singers and constantly advertising every day for the next operatic event. It is being told I need to give away a certain number of tickets at work .. and knowing that my colleagues all prefer hip-hop and heavy metal.
This hits home for me. The LDS church does not compare very well to a form of entertainment. It is work. The church maintains that losing oneself in the work is saving. I cannot deny that there can be many benefits associated with learning the value of hard work. I also believe that for those that believe, having an overarching life purpose and life goal can make life better and more meaningful. However, for those of us that not believe the dominant narrative, work for work’s sake can get really old really fast.
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