- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Here is an article from ldsliving.com titled: How can I know that I have been forgiven? This parable holds the answer. It is the traditional party line.
I would be interested in what others think.
I read the article. The point of the article seems to be that if we are to be forgiven, we have to forgive others. We need to feel an absence of animosity or bitterness toward other people. Only then does God forgive us of our trespasses. I think it’s a good point. It still doesn’t clarify when God has forgiven us, but it at least gives us a litmus test. If we are free of bitterness or animosity toward others, then we know that we have at least qualified for forgiveness. Our confidence that we’ve been forgiven can grow.
That is what I got from the article. Thanks for posting it Minyan Man!
I moved away from the punishment vs. reward view of God a long time ago, so “forgiveness” is tied solely to empowerment to change. If I am striving to change, I am “living in forgiveness” – and I try to see others that same way. I beleive in not judging others for not knowing in the past what they know now – and I see that as the heart of divine forgiveness / grace. I see it much more broadly than most members do. For me, it is nearly universal – which makes forgiveness / grace nearly a given for all. I try not to put parameters on that change for others. I try to honor any attempt to make any changes they see as positive, as long as they are not actively hurting others in objective or clearly illegal ways (with a few exceptions in areas where I strongly disagree with a law).
My mother always said that God forgives us our sins when we do two things: on the one hand, we repent of sin, and on the other hand we do not repeat sin. But some of what people or religions regard as sin is not really a sin. For example:
In the Catholic Church there is a group of women who want to become priests, bishops, etc. The group is called “Maria 2.0”. Some Catholic bishops and cardinals, especially from the Vatican, Poland and Africa, refer to these women as “sinners” who want to destroy the “natural order”. They were “influenced by Satan.”
But is the women’s request really a sin, especially when we look at what was really like it in the early Church? The women even held the office of apostle (Junia in Romans 16:7), or deaconesses were like Phoebe (Romans 16:1).
The Catholic Church has suffered for decades from a decline in membership, mostly self-inflicted (cases of child abuse and forced celibacy); So it is time to rethink and break new ground.
Revenge is human, forgiveness is divine, said my now deceased grandfather (he was not a member of the Church). There are things where forgiveness is easy, and other things where it is harder. But there are also things where it is impossible to forgive. Others, or themselves. Here’s a true story that makes it clear (short version):
A boy was sexually abused and beaten by his father. So did his sister and mother. When it started, he was six years old, ten when it stopped (presumably because he was in puberty). All were members of the Church in Idaho in the Seventies.
The boy, let’s call him Brian, suppressed his memories of his father’s abuse. until he remembered it at the age of fourteen, and then addressed his mother. The mother denied it, punching her son in the face. He went to the bishop, who summoned his father to himself. The father denied.
Brian knew what would happen when his father came home. He will beat him to death. Fearing, he took a pistol from his father and shot him with five bullets when he came home. Brian was sentenced to twenty years in prison (third-degree murder).
Brian was my cousin. His mother and my aunt were related.
Brian was excommunicated shortly after his arrest. No one in court, no one in the family or church wanted to hear his story. Everyone blamed him for murdering a “good man of God.” He hanged himself in his cell.
Can a rapist of children and wives be forgiven? I don’t think so!
Can a boy who resisted his attacker be forgiven? Yes, if the case is like my cousin’s?
And the court and the family who didn’t want to listen? Can they be forgiven? I can’t do it!
My conclusion: Forgiveness is sometimes impossible.
Gerlinde wrote:
My conclusion: Forgiveness is sometimes impossible.
I believe it is sometimes impossible (or extremely difficult) for humans to forgive each other. I do not believe forgiveness is impossible for God. I’ll go a little farther than Old-Timer and say forgiveness is (eventually) universal. But what else would one expect to hear from a universalist? FWIW, Joseph Smith heavily leaned universalist and due to his upbringing was fairly well versed in the subject. Much of our theology about penance came from others, mostly as converts brought their former theologies with them and wove into ours. Also FWIW, RMN seems to have a correct understanding of the meaning of the word repentance – change.
One day i realized all the anguish over perceived sins was not helping. The notion of repentance is a concept I avoid. I just try to live by the golden rule and leave it at that. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is a difference between forgiveness the way I see it (making an allowance for change at some point without demanding never-ending punishment) and forgetting (which is not possible OR healthy for humans in many situations). We are not commanded to forget. We can leave that to God to do righteously. We simply are commanded not to demand someone not be allowed to learn and grow and change and become. In other words, we are commanded not to condemn them to a classic version of Hell: “damnation” (an end to progress and growth). That also can be difficult in extreme situations, and it can be a goal or hope for some point in the future and still be acceptable.
After the stillbirth of my third child, I was feeling guilty/inadequate for failing to protect her from death. At the time I was asking lots of questions along the lines of “Could I have prevented this outcome if I were a better and more righteous father/priesthood holder?” I received an experience that was impactful for me. I felt deeply that my daughter was loved and cherished. I also felt that I am loved in the same measure and degree as my deceased daughter. How I interpret that answer is has some similarities to Amy’s example with her daughter. God loves my daughter not because her slate was clean of “sins, mistakes, or errors.” God loves her because of who God is and the relationship that He has with her.
God loves me not because of my achievements. God loves me because of who God is and the relationship that He has with me. To the degree that I hurt myself and others God would want for me to do that less because I believe that He hurts for the hurt of His children. God knows that the hurt we cause each other is largely where we are “developmentally in this process.” My relationship with God was never in danger. He does not love me more or less than my daughter despite the many mistakes and achievements that I have made that she did not make.
I feel like a sculpture. God loved me as a lump of clay, God loves me as a work in progress, and God would love me as a refined finished product. God does not love the lump of clay because it has the potential to become something different. God would love the clay if it stayed eternally in its clay form and would feel no need to ever change it. The love God has for me is constant and does not change.
In this way, I do not need to feel forgiven by God because I no longer feel that God is offended, angry, or disappointed in me nor could ever be.
This was a very personal and individual experience for me but hypothetically God could love everyone in the same manner. I do recognize that there are verses of scripture that are not in harmony with my feelings about God’s love. I feel that those verses of scripture are examples of Man’s best attempts to understand the majesty and grandeur of God’s love for us but that they fall short for various reasons.
Very well said Roy. I agree that God loves us all pretty much equally. I think we have all done things we regret. I have done a few things that I can’t get past. I believe I have repented, because I feel intense regret in some cases, and don’t even know how I could do such things… But then I go and send a stupid email to our local FHC who can be very irritating sometimes. I can’t retract it. Not the worst thing I’ve done but bad enough. I don’t fear known knowns the most but unknown unknowns. I think sins of omission are as bad as sins of commission sometimes.
I do have a horrible thought sometimes – what if the church is wrong and its opponents are right and this is some Satanic fraud. My reasoning is that a just God would not punish us for things we did in ignorance or where we were misled by others. I also see a lot of good come out of the LDS besides all the controversial issues, which makes me doubt evil is the prime mover behind it. I find the mass media far more evil – especially the negative messages the advertizing industry puts out.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.