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Hello All, I introduced myself some time ago, but went back to lurking for the most part.
I am having a really difficult time at the moment with anything that is considered ‘modern day revelation’, so, anything that pertains to revelation on tithing after Joseph Smith, I have a really hard time accepting, unless it coincides with what is in the Bible, which from my perspective right now, it doesn’t. I also came across this post about what the church does with our tithing, but, I’m not one to believe something just because it is on the Internet. If even a portion of it is true though, I am going to have some major problems with continuing to pay.
http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm Have any of you researched tithing and could direct me to factual information (or as close as you can get to it) about the history and rise of our current tithing obligations? At this point, my main concern for not paying is that I won’t be able to attend the temple, which I love, but it has turned into something completely symbolic for me, not really necessary for my salvation, but a beautiful place. Anyway, I’m not sure that the amount of tithing I’m paying each year is worth continuing to go, I would like to have some other spiritual reason for doing so, but I’m not finding any. I would appreciate any and all insight!
Roadlesstraveled wrote:…I introduced myself some time ago, but went back to lurking for the most part…Anyway, since you all seem to have a much better grasp on the doctrinal aspect of many parts of the church, I thought I’d ask for your opinions. I am currently trying to decide on whether or not I want to continue paying tithing. My husband does not want me to at all, but we have separate income and I have been advised by my branch pres. that I should keep paying it. That being said, I am now at a point in my own journey where I’m not sure that I want to. I have tried to find everything I can in the scriptures about tithing, it’s origins, where did 1/10th come from, and I’m not coming up with much. It seems to me that in the Bible, it was a tax that they attached spiritual significance to, maybe part of the law of Moses? I can’t find any teachings from Jesus about actually paying tithing, just on giving to the poor.
I am having a really difficult time at the moment with anything that is considered ‘modern day revelation’, so, anything that pertains to revelation on tithing after Joseph Smith, I have a really hard time accepting, unless it coincides with what is in the Bible….At this point, my main concern for not paying is that I won’t be able to attend the temple, which I love, but it has turned into something completely symbolic for me, not really necessary for my salvation…Anyway, I’m not sure that the amount of tithing I’m paying each year is worth continuing to go, I would like to have some other spiritual reason for doing so, but I’m not finding any. I would appreciate any and all insight!
All I know about the history is that this commandment was largely ignored by members until Lorenzo Snow started emphasizing it more in 1899. At the time, the Church was in debt and hurting for money in part because of legal issues due to polygamy. As far as I’m concerned, it is mostly just a commandment of men left over from this time and the Church doesn’t need nearly this much money from the average member to operate anymore but they still ask for it mostly because that’s the tradition they have inherited and they tend to resist the thought of changing anything.
As far as the scriptural basis for tithing it looks like it was one of many laws from the Old Testament that many Christians argue were no longer necessary after Christ “fulfilled the law.” For example, Christians typically don’t worry about eating pork or shellfish even though the Old Testament says this is unclean. However, the main scripture we quoted in missionary discussions about tithing was
Malachi 3:8-10:Quote:“Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings…Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation…Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”
The only Bible verse I know of where Jesus specifically mentions tithing is
Matthew 23:23:Quote:“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith:
these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”My rationalization about this scripture is that even if he actually said this he was talking to the scribes and Pharisees not me in particular. Many early Christians continued to practice Jewish customs but as more “gentiles” were converted they were not required to adopt most of these Jewish traditions as a general rule.
Overall, I don’t know what good it would do for me to pay tithing if I do it grudgingly and I have a hard time justifying this when they are basically telling people they will be condemned and separated from their family forever if they don’t pay a specific amount. I just don’t buy it and I think this approach is manipulative. I guess if you still want to have a temple recommend without feeling guilty about it another option would simply be to pay all your bills first and then pay 10% on any left over “discretionary” income which is probably a more accurate measure of real “increase” nowadays anyway.
Well for starters, the word “tithe” literally means “tenth” as in 1/10th portion. If you want a general historical overview of the whole concept across many cultures and religions, I skimmed over this wikipedia article. It seemed like a decent sort of encyclopedic summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe On a personal level though, like any other religious practice, it is a meaningful and valuable as you decide to make it. I know many people can’t see that (due to their stage of faith), but that’s the reality of it.
So instead of trying to once and for all figure out what the one-true and absolutely correct practice of tithing is, with a carefully detailed supporting argument and scriptural justification … try to figure out what
YOUWANT TO DO . And then do it. I am sure that whatever you do will be a journey of faith that will show you something about yourself, about life, and about God. Any spiritual blessings from it will be between you and God anyway. FWIW, you are not going to get validation or approval from a religious leader unless you are practicing tithing the way THEY personally believe you should practice it. You will not find peace in this by asking permission to be different. You will find peace by doing what you personally can do, and you will know when it is right by what it does for you. There’s nothing more practical and “real” than that.
I believe in the concept of tithing, in many forms. For me personally, it is an act of letting go. I don’t consider myself materialistic or flashy, but I have a strong sense of being afraid for survival, of letting go. Tithing could be a spiritual tool to help me with that. I also consider my time very valuable. I think often of how I “tithe” my time to building the Kingdom of God, and in serving. Call me corny, but I spend a lot of time working on this site and talking to people. I consider that a spiritual act of service to “God” and the universe, trying to make the world a better place and helping my fellow human beings.
There are many ways to “tithe.” There are many definitions and expressions of it The LDS Church has taught different practices over its short history — from law of consecration to a tithe. That may all be interesting, but the most interesting tithe is the one we give.
I hear your struggles — I’m kind of in the same place right now, although perhaps a little further along in deciding what I’m going to do about tithing. First, if you’re concerned about using references only the Bible, I think you’re going to come up short with much relevance to today’s interpretation of tithing.
Second, referring to the scriptures from DA describe tithing but throughout the scriptures, its definition seems almost intentionally murky and ill-defined. In the Doctrine and Covenants it’s described as “10% of your interest” which is ambiguous in today’s terminology. It has also been described as 10% of your “increase” in other Church lesson manuals which is also ambiguous. I have read from others that at one time, tithing was defined as 10% of your equity or assets (not sure which) upon joining, with 10% of your surplus afterwards (I have no source for this).
Then, as a result of questions about it’s true basis, or numerator for dividng “10” into — In the 70’s, the First Presidency defined it saying “interest” meant “income” — this was found in Gospel Principles, current edition, on tithing.
To my knowledge, the letter from the 1st Pres was never put through the process for creating formal doctrine described on the front page of StayLds.org, so it’s not official doctrine in my view. The temple recommend question includes “Do you pay your tithing”, and at tithing settlement, my Bishop always asks “Does this represent 10%”, but doesn’t explicitly say 10% of “what” in my experience.
Since the letter, there have been general authorities who defined it as gross income — such as wages for individuals, and for a business — the profit earned, etcetera. Yet, many good, temple recommend holding members continue to define tithing basd on net income, and get temple recommends year after year. Many are even open about it, which tells me there is room for interpretation — if good, LDS people can define income as net income, and others gross, then what’s stopping others from defining it on yet another way?
We also have a new Church Handbook of Instructions coming out, which may provide further guidance, but is not official doctrine — let’s wait and see what it says.
I don’t think anyone hear will tell you exactly what to do about this; you will have to make up your own mind and decide if you feel good about it.
But here are my thoughts:
1. Given the ever-changing definition, and the lack of specificity about the nature of the numerator into which we divide ten to arrive at the ultimate value we shold pay, I think there is room for personal interpretation. Some might define it as taxable income, gross income, net income, income after all essential expenses have been paid, or surplus after all allotment for reasonable savings, mission savings, education savings, or expenses that are used to generate income.
2. I believe that one should consider all the things the Church asks us to do to perpetuate its existence and improve our ability to create income in the first place — and put less strain on its resources. This includes putting kids on missions, education, a year’s supply of food storage and money, fast offerings, building fund, and find one’s own meaning as to what place those expenses have in their computation of the numerator. Each person should decide whether to ignore them, or subtract them from your gross or net income when computing tithing.
3. There IS strong need to impart of one’s substance to help others, lest we become selfish in this life. So, I think one should give up their income in some way, but at a level they feel they can do willingnly, and cheerfully to bless the lives of others, while making some sacrifice.
4. I don’t believe there is any onus on a person to share how they arrived at their tithing in interviews with Church leaders unless pressed. If a Church leader presses and then, based on your answer, says you haven’t paid enough, then you have to make further decisions — will I pay it and hold the TR? Or will I pay what I think, and do without a TR?
5. I think even a Bishop who stands up and tells the Ward that tithing is 10% of gross, is merely expressing opinion, not doctrine. However, if he demands my temple recommend, then out of respect for his office, I would relinquish it if one’s own definition of tithing is insufficient to the Bishop.
Some have said you can pay your tithing directly to SLC, so it appears simply as a donation to your business in case you feel privacy is important, but I haven’t been able to find an address for this, or an assurance that information might be pushed down to the local level.
Hope this provides more grist for the mill.
I’ll second Brian here. Tithe literally means tenth. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-20), and there is the famous scripture in Malachi (Will a man rob God?) We’ve talked about tithing here a bit too, such as this topic: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1941&p=22685&hilit=tithing#p22685 There is the story where Jesus is asked if it is lawful to pay taxes to Ceasar, and he told them to catch a fish, and take the coin from its mouth. (paraphrasing) “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s; give to God what is God’s.” So, I think you should decide whether you think it is a commandment from God to pay tithing.
In past years, I have donated stock to the church for tithing. The stock goes directly to SLC, not my ward, so my bishop knows nothing about it. When I went to tithing settlement, the sheet for Tithing Settlement said I had paid $0 in tithing. He asked if I was a full tithe payer, and I said “yes.” I wasn’t questioned further. Maybe some bishops are nosy, but I think most are not. If asked, I would have told him the truth–I paid tithing via stock donation directly to church headquarters. I get 2 tithing receipts each year: one from my ward, and one from the church for donated stock. I take both to my tax accountant to itemize my deductions.
As for church history, I take a bit of issue with Devil’s Advocate because I think he missed a bit of history there. I always like to remind people that the early saints lived consecration rather than tithing, so they had to pay 100%, not just 10%. Of course, that didn’t work so well either, so tithing was instituted. Brigham instituted the United Order (which is different than Consecration) in Utah, so many wards gave much more than 10%. As part of the anti-polygamy legislation, the US government confiscated all church property above $50,000. The church did the best they could to hide church property from the federal government to avoid confiscation, so many members did adopt the attitude that they didn’t want to pay their tithing to have it confiscated by the government. So yes, members did quit paying it but there’s a bit more to the story than DA mentioned. Once the church renounced polygamy in 1890, the government started returning confiscated property.
You may know the church was disincorporated as part of the anti-polygamy legislation, and church finances were in a shambles in the late 1800’s. President Lorenzo Snow undertook a campaign to get the church out of the red with a new emphasis on tithing. (Previous to the anti-polygamy legislation, the church finances were generally in quite good shape.) Since Lorenzo Snow, the finances have generally been pretty good.
A member of the Community of Christ commented on my blog that the RLDS still obey the 1841 version of tithing. Here’s what he said:
Quote:The 1841 interpretation of tithing was in effect in our denomination until recently, although compliance was always poor. Old timers (even compared to me) considered it a life’e milestone to pay off one’s tithing, and often made it the first thing to be taken from their estates in their wills.
I’ve always thought that form of tithing was one of the more progressive things we did, since “necessary living expenses” exempted a higher fraction of income from the poor and middle classes and placed more responsibilities upon the rich.
…
I had not known what we did was the 1841 law until I read the description here, but it clearly was.
The principle was that 1/10th of everything you had in excess of your basic living needs and “necessary wants” was tithable, as was a tenth of your annual income, subject to the same limitation. When baptized at 8, I dutifully filed my initial tithing statement indicating the value of my worldly goods, including toys, at $150 and accepting a tithing due of $15.00. This was quite a sobering sum for one whose allowance was 25 cents per week.
I suspect it was really sobering to adult converts!
This is very interesting and it enlightening to see how everyone differs on tithing. I think you will eventually have to make your own choice about it but I wouldn’t use the information on mormonthink to do it. Wow, talk about piss-poor and one-sided and I’m not even a deep or critical thinker. I don’t collect money like ward clerks but I spend a nice little sum of tithing money each year so sometimes that gives a little different perspective. I hope you can find a comfortable place with tithing where you’ll feel you can qualify and attend the temple. You may want to think of your tithing as the part that pays for some part of your temple’s upkeep rather than going to the great and spacious building in SL. “Look, they sealed and striped the parking lot! That’s my tithing for the year (or two).”
mormonheretic wrote:I’ll second Brian here. Tithe literally means tenth…So, I think
you should decide whether you think it is a commandment from God to pay tithing.…As for church history, I take a bit of issue with Devil’s Advocate because I think he missed a bit of history there. I always like to remind people that the early saints lived consecration rather than tithing, so they had to pay 100%, not just 10%. Of course, that didn’t work so well either, so tithing was instituted…As part of the anti-polygamy legislation, the US government confiscated all church property above $50,000. The church did the best they could to hide church property from the federal government to avoid confiscation, so many members did adopt the attitude that they didn’t want to pay their tithing to have it confiscated by the government. So yes, members did quit paying it but there’s a bit more to the story than DA mentioned…You may know the church was disincorporated as part of the anti-polygamy legislation, and church finances were in a shambles in the late 1800’s. President Lorenzo Snow undertook a campaign to get the church out of the red with a new emphasis on tithing.
I wasn’t trying to say that Church members haven’t been making heavy sacrifices for most of the Church’s history, I know they typically have but my main point was simply that tithing the way it is preached in the Church now as an expected requirement for full fellowship that is also supposedly directly tied to blessings or curses mostly became a such a major point of emphasis under Lorenzo Snow starting in 1899. Consecration was completely different in my opinion because it was almost a religious form of socialism and they were not simply expected to give up whatever they were asked to by the Church just to test their obedience it was also about sharing with each other as a community and they basically depended on the Church to give back enough to support them. Well how much does the Church give back now?
It looks to me like they have been hoarding a huge surplus of extra tithing money that they don’t really need at this point and have been spending some of it on questionable investments (mall?), PR advertizing campaigns, etc. If I honestly felt like God really wanted me to pay this much tithing or even that the Church really needed it to continue to operate it would be much easier to justify but as it is there is no way I can really feel good about it (2 Corinthians 9:7) because the amount they are asking for seems completely pointless and unnecessary and for me it is way out of proportion compared to the general lack of confidence I have in Church leaders and the Bible as any kind of absolute authority.
Quote:It looks to me like they have been hoarding a huge surplus of extra tithing money that they don’t really need at this point and have been spending some of it on questionable investments (mall?), PR advertizing campaigns, etc. If I honestly felt like God really wanted me to pay this much tithing or even that the Church really needed it to continue to operate it would be much easier to justify but as it is there is no way I can really feel good about it (2 Corinthians 9:7) because the amount they are asking for seems completely pointless and unnecessary and for me it is way out of proportion compared to the general lack of confidence I have in Church leaders and the Bible as any kind of absolute authority.
The scriptures are clear that the Lord wants us to give willingnly. So, if you feel this way, I can see why you would hesitate to pay it. Of course, as I said earlier, there is definitely room for private interpretation when you look at it from a sheer straight doctrinal standpoint. HOpefully people can find a personal interpretation that gives them the opportunity to sacrifice willingly, yet still qualify for a temple recommend.
I believe the Church when it says that no tithing money is used for things like the mall and PR campaigns. That money is supposed to come from the business investments and income of the church’s corporate wing, and I believe that it does. One of the arguments against tithing that bothers me the most is the one that mixes church expenditures with “income categories”. Tithing is used for things that are totally separate from non-tithing things, and the same is true of fast offering funds. They are totally different and distinct financial areas, with solid walls between them – at least, if the Church is being honest in its public statements and audits, and I believe those statements and audits are true.
Old-Timer wrote:I believe the Church when it says that no tithing money is used for things like the mall and PR campaigns. That money is supposed to come from the business investments and income of the church’s corporate wing, and I believe that it does.
One of the arguments against tithing that bothers me the most is the one that mixes church expenditures with “income categories”. Tithing is used for things that are totally separate from non-tithing things, and the same is true of fast offering funds. They are totally different and distinct financial areas, with solid walls between them – at least, if the Church is being honest in its public statements and audits, and I believe those statements and audits are true.
I believe it when they say no tithing funds are used for the mall, etcetera. However, I do believe that at some point, donations from members were invested to create the initial wealth that has driven the financial success of the Church. I also believe that more funds could be funnelled back to the Wards to make their experience better.
I won’t go into my own stories here, but I have had some where I leave meetings shaking my head that there are results we could be achieving with a SMALL amount of funds invested, and sent back to the Wards to improve the quality of their programs. I also disagree with the onus on my family to clean the chapel and do other things that could be easily funded. When I’m not fiercely busy, it’s not as a big a deal, but when I was burdened with a hefty calling and other events in my life, and I couldn’t find anyone to help with the cleaning reliably, it was a source of frustration for me, and one that still bothers me today….
Old-Timer wrote:I believe the Church when it says that no tithing money is used for things like the mall and PR campaigns. That money is supposed to come from the business investments and income of the church’s corporate wing, and I believe that it does…One of the arguments against tithing that bothers me the most is the one that mixes church expenditures with “income categories”. Tithing is used for things that are totally separate from non-tithing things…at least, if the Church is being honest in its public statements and audits, and I believe those statements and audits are true.
SilentDawning wrote:I believe it when they say no tithing funds are used for the mall, etcetera. However, I do believe that at some point, donations from members were invested to create the initial wealth that has driven the financial success of the Church. I also believe that more funds could be funnelled back to the Wards to make their experience better…I won’t go into my own stories here, but I have had some where I leave meetings shaking my head that there are results we could be achieving with a SMALL amount of funds invested, and sent back to the Wards to improve the quality of their programs. I also disagree with the onus on my family to clean the chapel and do other things that could be easily funded.
If they take income from their businesses or investments and siphon it off to pay for a mall even though they can honestly say the mall wasn’t directly paid for by tithing it just makes you wonder where all the money to fund these businesses and investments originally came from if not tithing and other donations. My main point was that to me it looks like they already have more money than they know what to do with so it doesn’t really make that much sense for them to keep giving people a guilt-trip about this and encouraging them to pay their tithing first before paying any other bills and then just have faith that everything will magically work out when they don’t even have a good use for the money they already have. To me this level of unquestioning obedience isn’t any kind of positive or beneficial faith, it’s an unhealthy denial of reality.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think most of these Church leaders really meant any harm by this and I don’t really believe in the whole evil corporation idea some bitter ex-Mormon cynics have. To be honest I think these Church leaders generally have good intentions and my guess is that this is just another LDS tradition that has taken on a life of its own where they started asking for more money this way at a time when they really needed it but now that they don’t need nearly this much from the average member anymore they are still convinced that paying this much tithing is always good for you no matter what because of all the teachings about this they have inherited. I guess what I’m trying to say here is that if you aren’t convinced that this doctrine is inspired I wouldn’t expect them to start asking for less any time soon, all you can really do about it is either refuse to pay it or pay whatever you are comfortable with.
Quote:If they take income from their businesses or investments and siphon it off to pay for a mall even though they can honestly say the mall wasn’t directly paid for by tithing it just makes you wonder where all the money to fund these businesses and investments originally came from if not tithing and other donations. My main point was that to me it looks like they already have more money than they know what to do with so it doesn’t really make that much sense for them to keep giving people a guilt-trip about this and encouraging them to pay their tithing first before paying any other bills and then just have faith that everything will magically work out when they don’t even have a good use for the money they already have. To me this level of unquestioning obedience isn’t any kind of positive or beneficial faith, it’s an unhealthy denial of reality.
I have had the same thoughts. However, I still feel the need to contribute something reasonable without sacrificing my own self-reliance. Also, I personally have to be on guard that I don’t let these beliefs above (that I largely believe) push me into a state of selfishness where I hoard all I earn for myself. I do believe there should be sacrifice for the good of others. However, given the Church being awash in cash, I feel the money should be in the form of a very large fast offering, rather than much tithing at all…but then, that would put me out of a temple recommend. Personally, I wonder why the question in the TR isn’t “do you pay a generous fast offering”, as the scriptures on looking after the poor are also very stiff. They indicate that those who don’t look after the poor are not [my] disciple, or the BoM scripture says that if you don’t look after the poor and needy, your prayers are in vain, and I think the D&C describes the anger that God feels when people don’t give of their substance to help the poor.
On an unrelated note, there’s a bit of a paradox here — on one hand, the scriptures say not to rely upon “the arm of flesh”, yet, on the other hand, the mantra of the Church welfare system is self-reliance. Yet, on the other hand, one Bishop I knew said that tithing comes before immediate self-reliance. So, (he said) if in paying your tithing you are short for your personal needs, you should approach your savings, your family, and then the Church for assistance — placing yourself in an embarassing position where you then are usually expected to work off your incurred obligation some way, like going to the Bishop’s storehouse or doing work around the chapel. I have a bit of a problem with this, as the scriptures do say the Church (and I am a member of the Church) should stand independent of all things below the Celestial world, which suggests we should in fact place looking after our basic needs first, so we never have to run to the Church for assistance in case we are short. There is a value conflict there….and my personal interpretation that the immediate needs of my family come first.
Some will say that what is done with the money is not their concern; that there are blessings from heaven even if the money is misused. and obeying the commandment unlocks the blessings of heaven.
Here is something Ben Franklin said about this:
Franklin tells the story of a minister he was friends with, and needed a place to stay for an evening or two as he preached in Philadelphia. He asked Ben Franklin for free lodging, and Franklin agreed.
Franklin describes the subsequent conversation:
Quote:He replied that if I made that kind offer for Christ’s stake, I should not miss of a reward. And I returned ‘Don’t let me be mistaken,; it was not for Christ’s sake, but for your sake’. One of our common acquaintances jocoosley remarked, that, [he] knew it to be the custom of the saints, when they received any favor, to shift the burden of obligation from their shoulders and place it on heaven. I had contrived to fix it on earth.
Although I don’t feel the Church is out to squeeze us dry, the argument that I should forgo many blessings inherent in tithing given to an organization that doesn’t need it, doesn’t sit right with me anymore. And I see a complete avoidance of accountability for its use to the members, unfortunately, with continued preaching about tithing, being burned at the second coming, etcetera.
I have to confess, tithing is one of the most confusing and unsettling doctrines to me in the last year.
SilentDawning wrote:Quote:To me this level of unquestioning obedience isn’t any kind of positive or beneficial faith, it’s an unhealthy denial of reality.
I have had the same thoughts. However, I still feel the need to contribute something reasonable without sacrificing my own self-reliance…the mantra of the Church welfare system is self-reliance…one Bishop I knew said that tithing comes before immediate self-reliance. So, (he said) if in paying your tithing you are short for your personal needs, you should approach your savings, your family, and then the Church for assistance — placing yourself in an embarassing position where you then are usually expected to work off your incurred obligation some way, like going to the Bishop’s storehouse or doing work around the chapel…Although I don’t feel the Church is out to squeeze us dry, the argument that I should forgo many blessings inherent in tithing given to an organization that doesn’t need it, doesn’t sit right with me anymore…I have to confess, tithing is one of the most confusing and unsettling doctrines to me in the last year.
When I said that this level of unquestioning obedience was not faith but denial of reality what I meant was that personally I think the Church should be ashamed of even suggesting the idea of paying tithing before other necessary bills which they have done repeatedly in lessons, speeches, etc. Just because I can afford to pay tithing without much personal inconvenience doesn’t mean it’s fair to assume that everyone else is in a similar financial situation.
I understand the idea that if you have $1000 that you can use any way you want and if you assume that God gave you this money anyway it may not seem like too much to ask to give $100 back rather than being completely selfish. However, suppose someone makes barely enough money to pay their mortgage/rent, taxes, car payments, utility bills, groceries etc. and then some bishop assumes that tithing must be 10% of gross income and insists on this. Should anyone like this move back in with their parents just so they can afford to pay tithing and get a temple recommend?
How much has God really given anyone in a situation like this? It just doesn’t add up or make any sense in my opinion to expect people to pay tithing on gross or even net income in a case like that. I don’t want to hear about any pie-in-the-sky ideas that God wouldn’t ever let people suffer too much if they just pay their tithing and don’t worry about the consequences, assuming God exists he has already allowed things much worse than poverty to happen in many cases.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:SilentDawning wrote:Quote:I understand the idea that if you have $1000 that you can use any way you want and if you assume that God gave you this money anyway it may not seem like too much to ask to give $100 back rather than being completely selfish. However, suppose someone makes barely enough money to pay their mortgage/rent, taxes, car payments, utility bills, groceries etc. and then some bishop assumes that tithing must be 10% of gross income and insists on this. Should anyone like this move back in with their parents just so they can afford to pay tithing and get a temple recommend?
I personally have decided that I would not make that move into my parents in order to pay my tithing. I would make adjustments that allow me to continue to be self -reliant, with a view to living below my means so I was in a position to pay tithing without any reliance on anyone else. If it meant suspending paying tithing for a year, then I would consider it. This is a case where two principles are in conflict with each other — tithing, and self-reliance, just as the Sabbath Day commandment can be in conflict with our need to maintain decent employment at times. In this case, I think I would be more inclined to side with self-reliance. If this means having my temple recommend denied, then so be it.
Now, recognize that I’m a bit battle-scarred from my experiences in the Church on temporal matters, although I’ve never approached the Church for any kind of assistance in my life. These lingering effects are driving much of my thinking. Others may not have had such experiences, and may think differently. In fact, if I could reverse the thinking and events that have led me here, I would. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to.
Tithing is very old and was widely practiced in Medieval Europe.
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