Doctrine vs Culture/Tradition

[Anonymous]

QuestionsAbound’s question in another thread about what constitutes Doctrine and Culture in the church reminded me of a lessen I gave over 20 years ago in HPG, and I’ve given it several times since.

It always gets a lot of conversation going!

I hand out the following below, and we go over each item, and assign one of the definitions to each item. There is almost never agreement on any of them. Once we only got half way through the list, and the HPGL invited me back the following week to finish!

Quote:

Definitions:

> Doctrine (D) Items that are solidly backed by scripture, or FP statement.

>Conventional Wisdom (CW) This category is for those “doctrines” or teachings which can’t be solidly backed up by Scripture, but on which the brethren have appeared to be in agreement.

> Unanswered question (Q) Doctrines on which there is not a consensus among the brethren.

>General Policy (GP): Rules/regulations that are set by Salt lake to help us with doctrine.

>Local Policy (LP): Rules/regulations set by local authorities, sometimes based on doctrine, sometime on tradition. Changes from time to time, place to place.

>Tradition (T): Things we do “because we have always done it that way” Based on culture/tradition etc. Often confused with D, GP, LP.

---

Baptism

Clean shaven men.

We call each other “Brother” and “Sister”, and use last names.

Polygamy (polygyny) is practiced in the celestial kingdom

We meet in a 3 hr block on Sunday

We observe the Sabbath on Sunday

Using right hand to take the sacrament

We don’t use the cross in our worship.

Word of Wisdom

Implementation of Word of Wisdom

Using right hand to sustain

Bishop partaking the Sacrament first

Wording in sustaining various calls

Principle of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings.

Implementation of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings.

Deacons wear white shirts

Men wear dress shirts and ties, women dresses, to church

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms

God is living in (or out of) time

[Anonymous]

OK, I”ll be your first contestant. Since Sheldon says there is almost never agreement, feel free to disagree with me. I’ll admit some of them were harder to classify than others – if there’s an asterisk I am not firm on it.

Baptism – D

Clean shaven men – T

Brother/Sister – T

Polygamy – Q* (I don’t think there is a category for this one)

3 hour block – GP

Sabbath – CW*

Sacrament right hand – T

No cross – Q*

WoW – CW*

WoW implementation – Q

Sustaining with right hand – T

Bishop taking sacrament first – Q*

Wording in sustaining calls – LP

Tithing, HT, temple attendance, FO – CW*

Implementation of the above – Q

Deacons wear white shirts – T

Adult church dress – T*

No movement between kingdoms – Q*

God lives – D*

No one should be surprised that I have a rather limited view of what I consider to be doctrine.

[Anonymous]

Sheldon wrote:

Definitions:

> Doctrine (D) Items that are solidly backed by scripture, or FP statement.

I like your list and your definitions. I’d even say that FP statement is no guarantee of doctrine.

here’s my take on part of your list:

Baptism – doctrine

Word of Wisdom – Conventional wisdom

Bishop partaking the Sacrament first – tradition, but it kind of makes sense since he approves whether the prayer was said ok.

Home teaching, fast offerings – to me these are at the core of doctrine of helping the widows, the sick, and the needy. Monthly HT is Not doctrine IMO.

Deacons wear white shirts – we have deacons pass in colored shirts from time to time.

[Anonymous]

Here’s my shot at it:

Doctrine (D) Items that are solidly backed by scripture, or FP statement.

>Conventional Wisdom (CW) This category is for those “doctrines” or teachings which can’t be solidly backed up by Scripture, but on which the brethren have appeared to be in agreement.

> Unanswered question (Q) Doctrines on which there is not a consensus among the brethren.

>General Policy (GP): Rules/regulations that are set by Salt lake to help us with doctrine.

>Local Policy (LP): Rules/regulations set by local authorities, sometimes based on doctrine, sometime on tradition. Changes from time to time, place to place.

>Tradition (T): Things we do “because we have always done it that way” Based on culture/tradition etc. Often confused with D, GP, LP.

Baptism – D

Clean shaven men – GP at first (in response to the sexual revolution), now T

We call each other “Brother” and “Sister”, and use last names. – T

Polygamy (polygyny) is practiced in the celestial kingdom – D but downgraded to Q because nobody is willing to admit it

We meet in a 3 hr block on Sunday – GP

We observe the Sabbath on Sunday – D

Using right hand to take the sacrament – T

We don’t use the cross in our worship. – T (more properly stated, a counter-tradition of other faiths)

Word of Wisdom – D sort of, but not binding

Implementation of Word of Wisdom – GP (because it bears little resemblance to the actual WoW

Using right hand to sustain – GP

Bishop partaking the Sacrament first – T

Wording in sustaining various calls – GP

Principle of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings. – GP, except tithing which is D

Implementation of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings. – GP

Deacons wear white shirts – T

Men wear dress shirts and ties, women dresses, to church – T

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms – Q

God is living in (or out of) time – Q

[Anonymous]

Roadrunner wrote:

Bishop partaking the Sacrament first – tradition, but it kind of makes sense since he approves whether the prayer was said ok.

I think this is a smart idea. We should all watch the bishop closely to make sure that he doesn’t get sick afterwards to ward against poison. It simply wouldn’t do to have the entire ward incapacitated at the same time. 😆

[Anonymous]

One of my favorite “unaswered questions” is whether there is any preordination in determining who one should marry.

This is interesting not only because it is unanswered, but moreso because different people have such strongly held convictions about it.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

One of my favorite “unaswered questions” is whether there is any preordination in determining who one should marry.

This is interesting not only because it is unanswered, but moreso because different people have such strongly held convictions about it.

I thought that was answered in the 1970’s by the play “Saturday’s Warrior”

[Anonymous]

Sheldon wrote:

Roy wrote:

One of my favorite “unaswered questions” is whether there is any preordination in determining who one should marry.

This is interesting not only because it is unanswered, but moreso because different people have such strongly held convictions about it.

I thought that was answered in the 1970’s by the play “Saturday’s Warrior”

Yeah, but what happens to our preordained spouse if we’re like JImmy but don’t come back?

Back on topic. Hawkgrrrl, our lists match fairly closely. I do believe the Sabbath is doctrine, but not necessarily on Sunday.

[Anonymous]

I like that list. I think this doctrine vs. culture question is key.

I think that if it’s in the scriptures it’s doctrine, so I focus on that. Everything else I assume might be custom, culture, tradition, etc.

I like that verse D&C 93, “That wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience … and because of the tradition of their fathers.” That’s a good warning.

I think there is probably a fair amount of American culture and Utah culture mixed into our Mormon lives that we assume is true, but is not. When you are embedded in a culture it’s hard to separate those things out.

I try to focus on the core things like faith, love, repentance, forgiveness, honesty, keeping covenants. That’s a life-time of work right there.

Who has time to worry about things like whether the sacrament table must have a white cloth on it. Or why beards are banned at BYU. (It’s Brigham Young University for cripes sake… OK, I have to let it go….) LOL

[Anonymous]

shoshin wrote:

I like that list. I think this doctrine vs. culture question is key.

I think that if it’s in the scriptures it’s doctrine, so I focus on that. Everything else I assume might be custom, culture, tradition, etc.

I like that verse D&C 93, “That wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience … and because of the tradition of their fathers.” That’s a good warning.

I think there is probably a fair amount of American culture and Utah culture mixed into our Mormon lives that we assume is true, but is not. When you are embedded in a culture it’s hard to separate those things out.

I try to focus on the core things like faith, love, repentance, forgiveness, honesty, keeping covenants. That’s a life-time of work right there.

Who has time to worry about things like whether the sacrament table must have a white cloth on it. Or why beards are banned at BYU. (It’s Brigham Young University for cripes sake… OK, I have to let it go….) LOL

Please define what is “scripture. ” Example. Please show me where anything pertaining to the mormon temple is located in the scriptures. Or would you consider the endowment and temple marriage required for exaltation and the TR recommend questions as just culture?

Thanks

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[Anonymous]

cwald,

The four standard works. Right? Maybe I don’t get your question.

There’s plenty about temples in the scriptures. Ignoring the Bible and Book of Mormon, here’s a list from the D&C, from lds.org:

The saints were commanded to build a temple in Missouri:D&C 57:3; ( D&C 84:3–5; )

Establish a house of God:D&C 88:119; ( D&C 109:8; )

The Lord chastened the Saints for failing to build a temple:D&C 95:1–12;

I will not come into unholy temples:D&C 97:15–17;

I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here:D&C 110:7–8;

The Lord’s people are always commanded to build a house unto his name:D&C 124:39;

The great work to be done in the temples includes the sealing of children to their parents:D&C 138:47–48;

The great latter-day work includes the building of temples:D&C 138:53–54;

OK, besides the scriptures I should add “listen to the prophet.”

[Anonymous]

All of your references are D&C?

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[Anonymous]

shoshin wrote:

cwald,

OK, besides the scriptures I should add “listen to the prophet.”

Oh. Missed this. Never mind. You just answered the question.

Wouldn’t this mean no two sets of earrings, is doctrine, since it came from President Hinkley?

Are you seeing the problem? I’m not trying to argue, just point out the validity of faith crisis and why it is not a simple black and white solution.

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[Anonymous]

I think the earrings thing is an example of why we have to distinguish between what someone says off-handed while they are in the office of president vs. an official pronouncement of the FP. But that doesn’t mean people don’t act like it’s a real pronouncement.

[Anonymous]

I grew up in Arizona and my conventional Mormonism was challenged moving out east shortly after being married. A member of the bishopric didn’t wear a white shirt (GASP!) nor did all the young men passing the sacrament (I thought it was policy). We quickly came to love the unconventionalism. Not to mention a woman coming every steelers Sunday game day in her steelers jersey lol. Yes we were in Pittsburgh. But it was by living there I really learned the difference if separating culture from doctrine.

Also, in my singles ward, if a guy wore a colored shirt it was a sign of “don’t ask me to pass the sacrament because I can’t/won’t” but that was in Arizona…

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