Doctrine vs Culture/Tradition

[Anonymous]

I completely agree QA. It in fact relates directly to the priesthood ban, also. When leaders were asked why Blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood they didn’t know why (because there apparently was no reason beyond someone’s racism). So they made stuff up – less valiant in the pre-earth life, curse of Cain, etc. I am actually perfectly OK with an answer of “I don’t know” from a GA – as long there isn’t something seemingly arbitrary being enforced as a commandment.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Sheldon – you haven’t told us what you think. How do you rate each of the items on your list?

Baptism (D)

Clean shaven men. (T, LP)

We call each other “Brother” and “Sister”, and use last names. (T)

Polygamy (polygyny) is practiced in the celestial kingdom (CW)

We meet in a 3 hr block on Sunday (GP)

We observe the Sabbath on Sunday (GP, T)

Using right hand to take the sacrament (T)

We don’t use the cross in our worship. (T)

Word of Wisdom (D)

Implementation of Word of Wisdom (GP)

Using right hand to sustain (T)

Bishop partaking the Sacrament first (T)

Wording in sustaining various calls (GP)

Principle of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings. (D)

Implementation of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings.(GP)

Deacons wear white shirts (T, LP)

Men wear dress shirts and ties, women dresses, to church (T)

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms (Q)

God is living in (or out of) time (Q)

On these last two items, I included them specifically because you can find directly conflicting answers to them by General Authorities. These make for great discussion, because when I teach the class, I have the exact quotes (which I don’t have with me now) which I read to the class. It is very enlightening to some that there is a disagreement between the brethren on these and other items that some would think should be nailed down firm one way or the other.

[Anonymous]

Sheldon wrote:

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms (Q)

God is living in (or out of) time (Q)

On these last two items, I included them specifically because you can find directly conflicting answers to them by General Authorities. These make for great discussion, because when I teach the class, I have the exact quotes (which I don’t have with me now) which I read to the class. It is very enlightening to some that there is a disagreement between the brethren on these and other items that some would think should be nailed down firm one way or the other.

True that, Sheldon. I would be very interested in seeing a quote from a GA indicating that God exists in other than the standard LDS ideal.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Sheldon wrote:

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms (Q)

God is living in (or out of) time (Q)

On these last two items, I included them specifically because you can find directly conflicting answers to them by General Authorities. These make for great discussion, because when I teach the class, I have the exact quotes (which I don’t have with me now) which I read to the class. It is very enlightening to some that there is a disagreement between the brethren on these and other items that some would think should be nailed down firm one way or the other.

True that, Sheldon. I would be very interested in seeing a quote from a GA indicating that God exists in other than the standard LDS ideal.

I’ll look for the quotes tonight at home and post them up

[Anonymous]

Baptism. –Doctrine

Clean shaven men. –Tradition

I think this has never been in the Handbook and was never General Policy, even though many believe it is (including general authorities). I reckon it’s General Policy for missionaries, though there was an old married missionary in my mission who sported an awesome mustache and I gave it due respect. I reckon it’s General Policy at BYU.

There is some Local Policy going on. Temple presidents, stake presidents, and bishops often ask/tell guys to shave and I believe there are no grounds to do so.

We call each other “Brother” and “Sister”, and use last names. –Tradition

I like the tradition of “Brother Joseph” better, but using last names isn’t so bad. I dislike titles like “President” and “Elder.”

Polygamy (polygyny) is practiced in the celestial kingdom –Unanswered Question

I am quite sure this was “Conventional Wisdom” in the past, but not now.

We meet in a 3 hr block on Sunday –General Policy

I reckon this is flexible in some areas.

We observe the Sabbath on Sunday. –Doctrine

I see this as doctrine that was established after Christ was resurrected on a Sunday and the disciples began meeting on Sundays. However, I understand members in some countries meet on other days due to their culture, like in Japan.

Using right hand to take the sacrament. –Tradition

We don’t use the cross in our worship. –General Policy

It’s General Policy to not use in official group worship (sacrament mtg, temple, etc.) but not a policy for individuals. Anyone can wear a cross if they want.

Word of Wisdom. –Doctrine

The way I see it now, there is a doctrine known as the “Word of Wisdom” but its definition and implementation are not necessarily doctrine.

Implementation of Word of Wisdom. –General Policy

The way it is implemented now – living by some things in D&C 89 while ignoring others – is a General Policy, though some local leaders can bend it a little. When I was 16, my bishop told me he didn’t care if I had a cigarette every now and then. He was wise and knew I was trying to quit and he didn’t want me to beat myself up when I slipped.

Using right hand to sustain. –Meh

Bishop partaking the Sacrament first. –General Policy

Handbook 2 says “The presiding officer receives the sacrament first. The bishop (or a counselor in his absence) presides at the sacrament meeting unless a member of the stake presidency, an Area Seventy, or a General Authority is sitting on the stand.”

Wording in sustaining various calls. –Meh

Principle of tithing. –Doctrine

Principle home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings. –General Policy

Implementation of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings. –General Policy

Deacons wear white shirts. –General Policy

It’s a General Policy that “Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate” (I added emphasis).

Men wear dress shirts and ties, women dresses, to church. –Tradition

I sure wish this tradition would die or at least wane. I especially dislike suit coats. Church is not a corporate board meeting!

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms. –Unanswered Question

I reckon there’s not a consensus on this one. I do not believe there will be progression from one kingdom to a higher one after the final judgment.

God is living in (or out of) time. –Yes

EXTRAS

Earrings. –Unanswered Question

In my opinion, the teachings in General Conference and in “For the Strength of the Youth” do not constitute Doctrine or General Policy.

“R” rated movies. –Tradition

This was never General Policy. It was a suggestion – a very good one with a few exceptions.

Waiting a year after civil marriage before a sealing can take place. –General Policy

This is a General Policy applied different ways in different countries. I wish this was changed.

Follow the prophet. –Doctrine

This goes along with “the prophet will never lead the Church astray.” I guess I have to categorize this as doctrine because it’s in Official Declaration 1 in the D&C. Too bad it’s not totally true. I am troubled when my kids sing “Follow the Prophet” at home. I recently told them it should say “follow the Spirit.”

The “Prophets” page on lds.org (link) says “We can always trust the living prophets” and “Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets…” Really? It seems there is greater safety in having faith in Christ and following the Spirit. Granted, it specifies following “the word of the Lord” but sometimes what a prophet says just might not be such.

I can accept that a prophet will not get us completely off course, though. I suppose a ship can be headed for the correct destination even though it doesn’t travel in a straight line and there is strife on board. Also, I actually do agree with at least 95% of what the 15 general authorities say – I just don’t like the sentiment that following the prophet is always the right thing and should trump following God (which is at least implied, probably unintentionally).

EDIT: I just added a link to the “Prophets” page in “Gospel Topics”

[Anonymous]

Baptism – As doctrine as doctrine gets

Clean shaven men – Tradition (and not always followed, so Local Policy influence)

We call each other “Brother” and “Sister”, and use last names – Tradition, with some local exceptions

Polygamy (polygyny) is practiced in the celestial kingdom – Question (former Conventional Wisdom, but not even believed by lots of members then)

We meet in a 3 hr block on Sunday – General Policy, different than former policy

We observe the Sabbath on Sunday – As doctrine as doctrine gets

Using right hand to take the sacrament – General practice, seen as doctrine by a few who think too much, not followed or taught openly or enforced

We don’t use the cross in our worship – Conventional wisdom (I don’t mind not having a cross in or on the buildings, but I have NO problem with people wearing crosses. I think we have gone too far with this one.)

Word of Wisdom – Concept = doctrine; specifics = general policy

Implementation of Word of Wisdom – See above

Using right hand to sustain – General policy

Bishop partaking the Sacrament first – General policy

Wording in sustaining various calls – General policy

Principle of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings – Different things, but, generally, in concept, doctrine.

Implementation of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings – General policy, except for tithing, which is doctrine.

Deacons wear white shirts – General policy, with exceptions stated by the top leadership, but influenced by local policy.

Men wear dress shirts and ties, women dresses, to church – Tradition

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms – Conventional wisdom (I agree – but I believe we have “all eternity” to progress to where we will end up eventually. I believe in stages of development more than kingdoms.)

God is living in (or out of) time – Supported by a couple of scriptural references, so a mix of doctrine and conventional wisdom – although I think most members don’t think about it at all.

Earrings – General policy, since it is in published guidelines, although it should be tradition (shouldn’t exist at all, but . . .)

R-rated movies – Conventional wisdom / tradition (based on one talk given to young men – we have over-extended it terribly)

Marriage waiting period – General policy in some areas

Follow the prophet – As doctrine as doctrine gets (but extent is a different topic)

[Anonymous]

Have just stolen these from another site and need to hunt down sources for them all, but thought they might be useful here:

“Joseph Smith Translation items, the chapter headings, Topical Guide, Bible Dictionary, footnotes, the Gazeteer, and the maps. None of these are perfect; they do not of themselves determine doctrine; there have been and undoubtedly now are mistakes in them. Cross-references, for instance, do not establish and never were intended to prove that parallel passages so much as pertain to the same subject. They are aids and helps only.” – Elder McConkie

“I have found that over that last 20 years a number of changes have been made in the introduction to the Book of Mormon – and that it is not consider[ed] scripture” – A representative from Church Public Affairs

“Only the Standard Works and statements written under assignment of the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles are considered official declarations by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint” – Elder Boyd K Packer

“this doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith” – Official Statement

“But there are many places where the scriptures are not too clear, and where different interpretations may be given to them; there are many doctrines, tenets as the Lord called them, that have not been officially defined and declare” – Elder J. Rueben Clark

Ensign articles do not establish official doctrine

The Flood and the Tower of Babel – Ensign Jan. 1998

Earth—A Gift of Gladness – Ensign July 1991

[Anonymous]

Re: Polygyny/polyandry: I think that it’s a question unanswered. I’ve read many references were leaders have said that it IS required, while other leaders say that we simply don’t know. If the brethren are still debating, then it’s not settled. We don’t preach it. We don’t practice it. It’s a poorly written section of scripture anyway – clunky and awkward. I wouldn’t mind it if was moved out of the D&C and into a “history” section.

Now then, I think I have come up with a new phrase to help ME define some hazy tradition/culture things…

ready?

“Cultural Doctrine”

🙂

I like it. Things like earrings, cultural doctrine…no caffeine, cultural doctrine.

I think I might go shopping one day and try on a cross necklace. They have such pretty ones now. If I’m not struck dead by wearing in the jewelry store I might just buy it. :angel:

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Sheldon wrote:

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms (Q)

God is living in (or out of) time (Q)

On these last two items, I included them specifically because you can find directly conflicting answers to them by General Authorities. These make for great discussion, because when I teach the class, I have the exact quotes (which I don’t have with me now) which I read to the class. It is very enlightening to some that there is a disagreement between the brethren on these and other items that some would think should be nailed down firm one way or the other.

True that, Sheldon. I would be very interested in seeing a quote from a GA indicating that God exists in other than the standard LDS ideal.

Both Orson Pratt and B. H. Roberts affirmed that God is in time. “The true God exists both in time and space “ (The Kingdom of God, 31 Oct 1848, 48). Roberts said that for God t “there is a succession of time with God- a before and after” (The Mormon Doctrine of God, 1903). Contrast that to Apostle Neal A. Maxwell statement “Once the believer acknowledges that the past , present, and future are before God simultaneously – even though we do not understand how, then the doctrine of foreordination may be seen somewhat more clearly” (A More Determined Discipleship, Ensign, 9 Feb 1979)

As far as if we can progress between kingdoms, the best references can be found in an article in Dialogue, A journal of Mormon Thought by James Bergera called Grey Matters: Is there Progression Among the Eternal Kingdoms?. (Spring, 1982). Download PDF here

The highlights from the Dialogue article are as follows:

1. If you wrote to the FP about this question, in 1952 and again in 1965 the First Presidency authorized their secretary to respond to such a

question in virtually identical language: “The Brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the Brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course ofprogression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle ofeternal progression; others of the Brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”

2 Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff said there was a progression between kingdoms, and the first edition of “Articles of Faith” by Talmage said there was progression. It was changed in later editions to reflect the church’s reluctance to take a stand.

3. But of course Bruce McConkie was never one to shy from taking a stand. “There are

those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the

eternal world. Or if not that, lower kingdoms eventually progress to where

higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious

doctrine” (“Seven Deadly Heresies”, 1 June 1980).

His father in law said “It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the

telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?” Elder Smith posited.

“The answer to this question,” he continued, “is, No!” (Doctrines of Salvation

11:31, emphasis in original)

[Anonymous]

Bruce R. McConkie: “This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious

doctrine.”

On the contrary, I have come to believe that CERTAINTY is a dangerous doctrine. I love this quote by Joseph Smith:

“Why be so certain that you comprehend the things of God, when all things with you are so uncertain?”

People in the LDS church are so quick to be “certain” and it causes a lot of damage. Because when you are uncertain, it is easy to believe that you are being “evil and pernicious.” I find it ironic how quick certain leaders have been to preach certainty, when so many past “certain” doctrines have been discredited. You would think that people would learn to stop trusting in certainty.

But then again, I was one of those people that trusted in certainty. I still struggle with the desire to have it and I get scared at times admitting that I don’t have certainty. But, life has truly shown me what Joseph Smith said: “All things with you are so uncertain.” All things.

[Anonymous]

thalmar wrote:

Bruce R. McConkie: “This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious

doctrine.”

On the contrary, I have come to believe that CERTAINTY is a dangerous doctrine. I love this quote by Joseph Smith:

“Why be so certain that you comprehend the things of God, when all things with you are so uncertain?”

People in the LDS church are so quick to be “certain” and it causes a lot of damage. Because when you are uncertain, it is easy to believe that you are being “evil and pernicious.” I find it ironic how quick certain leaders have been to preach certainty, when so many past “certain” doctrines have been discredited. You would think that people would learn to stop trusting in certainty.

But then again, I was one of those people that trusted in certainty. I still struggle with the desire to have it and I get scared at times admitting that I don’t have certainty. But, life has truly shown me what Joseph Smith said: “All things with you are so uncertain.” All things.

Well put, Thalmar, thank you. My feelings and thoughts are much the same as yours in this regard.

[Anonymous]

thalmar wrote:

“Why be so certain that you comprehend the things of God, when all things with you are so uncertain?”

Just when I think we’ve collected all of the quotes we possibly could… you go and add that one. A.May.Zing!

[Anonymous]

This my understanding of what the church teaches.

Baptism – D

Clean shaven men – LP, BYU notwithstanding

We call each other “Brother” and “Sister”, and use last names = CW

Polygamy (polygyny) is practiced in the celestial kingdom – Q

We meet in a 3 hr block on Sunday – GP

We observe the Sabbath on Sunday – CW

Using right hand to take the sacrament – T

We don’t use the cross in our worship – CW

Word of Wisdom – D

Implementation of Word of Wisdom – CW

Using right hand to sustain – GP

Bishop partaking the Sacrament first – GP?

Wording in sustaining various calls – LP

Principle of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings – D

Implementation of tithing, home teaching, temple attendance, fast offerings – CW?

Deacons wear white shirts – LP?

Men wear dress shirts and ties, women dresses, to church – T?

In the hereafter there is (no) movement between kingdoms – D?

God is living in (or out of) time – D?

Many of these I am uncertain about what their best category would be.

My rule of thumb is to try to follow what church leaders direct, unless it conflicts with my conscience and is a significant question. Obedience is not taught by our culture but it is a part of discipleship I think. In other words, does it really hurt me to just wear a tie to church? No, although I dislike it.

I do think that many things are over-emphasized in the church and I do not like mere traditions that make no sense. Also, people elevating traditions to the level of doctrine bugs me.

I went to the student ward at Berkeley once and enjoyed when a black woman belted out a rousing spiritual as the musical presentation in sacrament meeting. I enjoyed the iconoclasm of it, because although it would never have passed muster in most other wards I’ve seen, I thought it was entirely appropriate for that place and audience. Since then I’ve always wondered if some African-Americans must find our meetings and hymns painfully sedate.

The BYU dress code and no-beard policy has always bugged me. This always bugged me as a BYU student, not because I would have dressed any differently. But it risks over-emphasizing outward appearances – whitewashing sepulchers, to misquote the Bible. I remember seeing a UofU student one time in the BYU library – my first reaction was to be appalled- he had a beard! and was wearing sloppy jeans and a T-shirt! He must be wicked. This thought was swiftly followed by disgust at myself for my ridiculous thoughts and my BYU mental conditioning. That’s the danger right there. I tried to never be so silly again.

I remember too when I lived in the East a new temple president arrived and made all the men shave their beards. Now I think that’s his right in his calling, but I also can’t help feeling it was the BYU dress code issue all over again. Was it really important to be clean-shaven? No one in the East was offended by beards in the past, I assume.

Personally, it feels pompous to me to wear a full suit to church. But recently I realized that dressing nicely is to show respect to God, so now I understand the spirit of the tradition a little better. But I still don’t wear a suit coat. I just don’t think these kinds of things matter that much, and if anything there is the danger of feeling proud due to our “fine-twined linens” as the Book of Mormon quaintly words it. On my mission in South America many members wore T-shirts because that’s the best they had, and I think that’s great.

So yeah, I have lots of opinions about these things. But I try to focus on what matters and not get too upset either way.

[Anonymous]

thalmar wrote:

Bruce R. McConkie: “This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious

doctrine.”

On the contrary, I have come to believe that CERTAINTY is a dangerous doctrine. I love this quote by Joseph Smith:

“Why be so certain that you comprehend the things of God, when all things with you are so uncertain?”

People in the LDS church are so quick to be “certain” and it causes a lot of damage. Because when you are uncertain, it is easy to believe that you are being “evil and pernicious.” I find it ironic how quick certain leaders have been to preach certainty, when so many past “certain” doctrines have been discredited. You would think that people would learn to stop trusting in certainty.

But then again, I was one of those people that trusted in certainty. I still struggle with the desire to have it and I get scared at times admitting that I don’t have certainty. But, life has truly shown me what Joseph Smith said: “All things with you are so uncertain.” All things.

There is a great story (origin unknown) that says Elder McConkie was having a lively theological discussion with his brother, when his brother finally said “ Bruce, you might be a General Authority, but that does not make you an authority in general. “ It would be great if all the General Authorities where told this every so often.

[Anonymous]

Here’s one:

Swimming on Sunday

[Author]

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