Does God Affect Results?

[Anonymous]

This has been on my mind recently. I’m not sure if I believe in God, and I’m trying to maybe piece together something.

One thing I keep getting hung up is the lack of evidence that God actually changes things. You know, we pray to God for something, maybe for our child’s fever to go away, and anecdotally those things DO happen, but when you examine them at a macro level you realize that there’s no way to attribute that to God. Or at least God only effects change at the rate that things natural occur. And technically, from a macro viewpoint, that’s the exact same thing as having no effect. In other words, if 1000 patients have a disease with a 10% survival rate… and you did blind testing with prayers or priesthood blessings, you would find that 90% died, and 10% lived, regardless of prayers or blessings. Even if you say “it’s God’s will”, isn’t it strange that God’s will always occurs at the exact same rate as natural occurence?

Also, if God affects change, he only ever affects change for things that were likely to change on their own in the first place. For example, God never regrows arms or legs, or has people grow teeth once theirs have all fallen out. Not that he couldn’t do those things… technically it’s the same process of moving molecules around as curing somebody’s cancer, but there’s not a single documented source of those other things happening.

I do think there’s evidence that prayer can cause an internal emotional effect, eg. praying for comfort, but even that can somewhat easily be attributed to ideation…

What do you guys/gals think? Is there a way you’ve made this work?

[Anonymous]

For me it depends on how we define god. If we limit our understanding of god to be a omniscient, omnipotent man then perhaps he is incapable of affecting results.

Eating certain kinds of food can help regulate our blood sugars, serve as antidepressants, and lower our cholesterol. Foods have an effect on us; each food with an effect in its own sphere of influence … and that’s just plants.

A pet can help lower someone’s blood pressure, help someone feel less lonely, and can be an ice breaker to help people make connections. Animals can have an effect on us; a limited effect but an effect that can be studied… and that’s just animals.

Other people have a huge effect on us. We can give someone a ride to work when their car breaks down. We can perform coronary bypass surgery. We can assist people with severe conditions that render them incapable of taking care of themselves. We can listen. We can offer a shoulder to cry on… and that’s just people.

All these things and yet we typically place god on a higher plane than plants, animals, and people.

marty wrote:

In other words, if 1000 patients have a disease with a 10% survival rate… and you did blind testing with prayers or priesthood blessings, you would find that 90% died, and 10% lived, regardless of prayers or blessings. Even if you say “it’s God’s will”, isn’t it strange that God’s will always occurs at the exact same rate as natural occurence?

Here’s where I get wishy washy, I do that when I talk about god.

1) What if god’s effect wasn’t reaching down to occasionally bless a very select few? What if god’s effect was a belief that helped someone cope with tragedy, giving people some ray of hope to make it through a trial? That’s a tangible effect.

2) Maybe god is someone or something that is on a whole other plane of existence but we misinterpreted that as god being “perfect.” Maybe god is just like you or me in that it progresses line upon line. The theistic evolution theory comes to mind. Poofing humans into existence was a challenge so god decided to stack the deck and let nature unfurl the plan. Maybe we also screwed up in assuming that the plan has already completely unfurled. What if there’s more unfurling to come?

If we lived in Europe in the 18th century we might wonder where god was when smallpox was a leading cause of death. I’ve read a few different numbers so I’ll toss out a range, smallpox had anywhere from a 30 to 50% mortality rate. That’s a pretty grim outlook. Smallpox has now been eradicated, it’s no longer on the forefront of our minds. A disease that plagues us with a 90% mortality rate today could be eradicated for future generations. It’s hard to say, we may never see it.

Is this process god working behind the scene inspiring minds to find cures or is this people giving undue credit to god? It depends on how you define god. When it comes to finding cures for diseases I see plants, animals, and humans… life coming together.

Is god the force that keeps the universe from devolving into chaos or are we witness to a grand cosmic battle of survival of the fittest pitted against entropy. If it’s the latter I’m glad god invented popcorn.

[Anonymous]

My belief?

Yes and no – and I have no freaking clue why the yes and no occur in particular instances.

On a broader scale, our theology says we are gods and children of the Most High God. (from the Bible, ironically) Thus, God affects results every minute through his creation of us, his embryonic gods – and we, as gods, are the primary cause of good and bad results in the world.

I prefer to focus on that aspect of divine intervention – since, in that view, divine intervention is up to us.

[Anonymous]

My answer — I don’t know, but I hope he does.

There have been a few times in my life when I felt God stepped in to help me. Once, in a job interview, I came out with something after I felt like I no longer had control of what I was saying — I got the job and it funded a mission. There was one time I made a jerk of myself in front of a young lady I wanted to date, and prayed I could meet her accidentally so I could redeem myself. That happened — I ran into her by chance three days later on a bus where I’d never seen her before (no date involved though). I was only 21 at the time, but it meant something to me to be able to hold down a normal conversation, if only for 5 minutes. I felt like I got my self-respect back.

There were missionary discussions where the Spirit was so thick no one could speak….I hope these things were God helping me.

But really, I don’t know. But I hope so.

So, I go through life with a healthy skepticism, doing my best with the skills, and knowledge I have accumulated over the years. But I have hope God is there to bail me out of problems after I’ve done everything I can to make things good. I was always impressed with the scripture where God says is anger is kindled when people don’t “confess his hand in all things”. I’m not the person who is going to be superstitious about everything, but I have hope and am willing to acknowledge that God may have done something, and to thank him for it..

[Anonymous]

I’m not sure He does, but some people clearly believe (or even “know”) He does. I have taken a more deist view of God and from my point of view he does not intervene or affect outcomes – but He could. Lately I have begun to question how truly omniscient/omnipotent God is. I do not believe prayers are answered, at least not my prayers.

I respect those (inside and outside the church) who do not doubt that God intervenes in their lives. Their experiences and beliefs happen to differ from mine, but that’s just the way things are.

[Anonymous]

From one angle I could say no I don’t believe God actively plays with the outcome of any situation. Sometimes I just want to say humans have been deeply superstitious from the beginning of time and that has morphed into the present idea that God helps find lost car keys, sends rain when saints faithfully ask for it, and heals when faith is demonstrated.

On the other hand I try to remain humble about what I know and what I don’t understand. I feel we all share a deep connection, and I don’t know how deep or powerful that connection is. At some level I do believe faith heals, I think there is some evidence for it. Physicians know a positive attitude increases healing. Prayer may clear our minds enough to allow the memory (or sub conscious?) to remember where the keys are.

What it comes down to for me is the concept of “how” God works, even what is the true nature of God. I just let the little things go. When people share their “faith promoting” stories of God intervening in miraculous ways, I don’t get emotionally involved. I don’t need to challenge their personal experience. If they try to “force” it on me as proof of something I smile and let it fall as water on a duck’s back. The real problem in that situation is the other person’s fear, not my own experience.

[Anonymous]

Having our 3rd child stillborn was the catalyst for my faith transition. I have thought long and hard on this topic.

For me a belief in God’s blessing was all about controlling the uncontrollable. I knew that I couldn’t be everywhere to protect my family and so I paid tithing (and performed other church duties) with the belief that God would pick up the slack.

Since my faith crisis, I feel like my eyes have been opened to how the large extent that my life is or can be impacted by factors outside of my control. This has not necessarily been a good thing. Sometimes, I have anxiety attacks. It can be hard to come up with the motivation to give something my complete effort, because I am constantly aware that my best effort might not make a difference. Of course, there are situations where confidence, determination, and a willingness to take certain risks can deliver huge payoffs. Donald Trump does not seem to spend much time to second guess himself. Like him or hate him, I believe a sense of confidence can serve an individual well.

And so I believe that a belief in God can result in three main benefits:

1) Placebo

2) Gives us the confidence to do everything within our power. If I am given a 10% chance to live, My belief that God can deliver a miracle may actually spur me to leave no stone unturned in doing all that I can to optimize my 10% chance. Conversely, my belief in God might also help me make peace with moving on to “the next life.”

3) Belief in God’s blessings can help in developing an attitude of gratitude. I believe that this attitude can then positively affect many aspects of an individual’s life.

There can be additional ancillary benefits such as belief in God helping us find a home in a stable and supportive church community or developing other aspects of “clean living” (Mormons and SDA’s tend to live longer) but I see these as secondary.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

1) What if god’s effect wasn’t reaching down to occasionally bless a very select few? What if god’s effect was a belief that helped someone cope with tragedy, giving people some ray of hope to make it through a trial? That’s a tangible effect.

This is somewhat strange to me because God usually doesn’t give hope to people that don’t already believe deeply in him. It feels cart before the horse.

nibbler wrote:

2) Maybe god is someone or something that is on a whole other plane of existence but we misinterpreted that as god being “perfect.” Maybe god is just like you or me in that it progresses line upon line. The theistic evolution theory comes to mind. Poofing humans into existence was a challenge so god decided to stack the deck and let nature unfurl the plan. Maybe we also screwed up in assuming that the plan has already completely unfurled. What if there’s more unfurling to come?

This one is interesting – most would find it very blasphemous, even though it aligns with our theology.

nibbler wrote:

Is this process god working behind the scene inspiring minds to find cures or is this people giving undue credit to god? It depends on how you define god.

I like to joke with people that God seems to inspire scientists and those in the medical field much more than he does to people who proclaim to be religious leaders. That comment usually goes over like a lead balloon, but it’s very true.

nibbler wrote:

Is god the force that keeps the universe from devolving into chaos or are we witness to a grand cosmic battle of survival of the fittest pitted against entropy. If it’s the latter I’m glad god invented popcorn.

I could get behind this theory, but I think you’d have a hard time justifying that God is a force that’s holding us on the brink of survival, and that he also reaches down and moves atoms on a regular basis for individual people. When we look around us, it appears much more that God is letting things play out in their natural way. But that’s the physical world. I heard someone say once that God doesn’t care about the what (what happens). He only deals in the “how” (how we’ll respond, how we’ll deal with our circumstances) It’s a nice thought, but not very comforting to the young children sold into sex slavery. That’s the kind of thinking that works for the upper-middle class white male who’s trying to land the big promotion.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Lately I have begun to question how truly omniscient/omnipotent God is. I do not believe prayers are answered, at least not my prayers.

My experience also… I don’t currently pray with the family (I participate, but don’t say the prayers), and when I do – like when my mother-in-law makes me – I can’t bring myself to ask God to move the physical world in our behalf. Even things like blessing the food is so strange to me now. The food is going to do exactly what the food is going to do. I do believe there’s something powerful in expressing gratitude for our lives – not necessarily to give all credit to God, but to have a spirit of thankful reflection.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

Physicians know a positive attitude increases healing. Prayer may clear our minds enough to allow the memory (or sub conscious?) to remember where the keys are.

Both of these are true statements, but they are probably only true when you start from a believing place. In other words, a person who has lost faith in God won’t likely see any positive benefit from praying to God, at least not any more than Buddhist meditation.

Orson wrote:

When people share their “faith promoting” stories of God intervening in miraculous ways, I don’t get emotionally involved. I don’t need to challenge their personal experience. If they try to “force” it on me as proof of something I smile and let it fall as water on a duck’s back.

Yeah, I’ve struggled to avoid feeling smug or holier-than-thou in my non-believing stance. But I do get emotionally involved sometimes. My mom was over the other day and shared a “miraculous” missionary story that culminated in a missionary discussion in her home. When she left, my wife commented to the effect that her story must have really bugged me, but I was genuinely excited for my mom as she was telling me. I know her soul well enough to know that there are very few experiences in life that would bring her the pure ecstatic joy like this type of missionary experience. And why would I want any less for my Mom if I really love her?

I struggle when people use coincidence as a way to challenge my beliefs, but even then I know where it comes from.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

And so I believe that a belief in God can result in three main benefits:

1) Placebo

2) Gives us the confidence to do everything within our power. If I am given a 10% chance to live, My belief that God can deliver a miracle may actually spur me to leave no stone unturned in doing all that I can to optimize my 10% chance. Conversely, my belief in God might also help me make peace with moving on to “the next life.”

3) Belief in God’s blessings can help in developing an attitude of gratitude. I believe that this attitude can then positively affect many aspects of an individual’s life.

There can be additional ancillary benefits such as belief in God helping us find a home in a stable and supportive church community or developing other aspects of “clean living” (Mormons and SDA’s tend to live longer) but I see these as secondary.

Like you are painfully learning (me too), these only really work if you believe in the first place. When I finally admitted to myself that I was struggling with a belief in God, I lost access to even the benefits of trying to believe in God. I’m in the process of trying to piece something back together, but I’m finding that my requirements for faith are too high, or that the evidence just isn’t there.

[Anonymous]

marty wrote:

nibbler wrote:

1) What if god’s effect wasn’t reaching down to occasionally bless a very select few? What if god’s effect was a belief that helped someone cope with tragedy, giving people some ray of hope to make it through a trial? That’s a tangible effect.

This is somewhat strange to me because God usually doesn’t give hope to people that don’t already believe deeply in him. It feels cart before the horse.

I wasn’t very clear. In that second question I was essentially asking “What if the concept of god is nothing more than a placebo?” In that case it wouldn’t be god blessing people with hope, it would be people’s hope in god that saw them through a problem. In the end a person was able to cope with a problem irrespective of whether or not there actually is a god. That begs another question, does a placebo work if we suspect it’s a placebo?

marty wrote:

nibbler wrote:

Is god the force that keeps the universe from devolving into chaos or are we witness to a grand cosmic battle of survival of the fittest pitted against entropy. If it’s the latter I’m glad god invented popcorn.

I could get behind this theory, but I think you’d have a hard time justifying that God is a force that’s holding us on the brink of survival, and that he also reaches down and moves atoms on a regular basis for individual people. When we look around us, it appears much more that God is letting things play out in their natural way. But that’s the physical world. I heard someone say once that God doesn’t care about the what (what happens). He only deals in the “how” (how we’ll respond, how we’ll deal with our circumstances) It’s a nice thought, but not very comforting to the young children sold into sex slavery. That’s the kind of thinking that works for the upper-middle class white male who’s trying to land the big promotion.

For me it all hinges on how we define god. If you define god as the totality of all living things, plants, animals, people, etc., then god can be something that reaches down to touch our lives personally. The scent of pine from a Christmas tree, a dog sitting beside us when we feel alone, someone holding the door open for us, etc. Of course if you take that approach you’ll likely have to shed the concept of god being the perfect arbiter of justice, sinless, omnipotent, etc. but you get to keep certain things like god being a creator of life, a god that has suffered every ill, a god that sacrifices to bless the lives of others, etc.

That’s just one alternate definition of god. Sheding belief in the LDS conceptualization of god or even the Abrahamic conceptualization of god doesn’t automatically make someone atheist. It might just mean we have to revisit how we define god. Meh, it’s mostly a meaningless semantics battle if you look at things too closely.

[Anonymous]

I believe in a God – Within – Me, because of that I do believe God affects results. It’s one of the crazy things I can’t shake.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

I wasn’t very clear. In that second question I was essentially asking “What if the concept of god is nothing more than a placebo?”

Ah, I see. And I could improve my reading skills.

[Anonymous]

Most of the time I don’t think god has any specific impact on my life.

But I often doubt myself that I really know that. Which means….I sometimes choose to believe he does and did, and I can’t explain it other than I have faith in it.

Sometimes I am not sure it really matters to me. Things will happen I cannot control. God’s will is not something that bends to mine, no matter how hard I believe. How I frame it upon inspection is my story I tell myself.

But I find value in being gracious, thankful, humble, hopeful, faithful, mystical, and aware. Being in the moment is more important than the story I assign to what happened in the past and where it came from, or the anticipations of the future and how it will come about.

[Author]

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