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Old-Timer wrote:
I agree, nibbler – but if everyone was told they could have whatever they want with no effort many would make no effort – and, imo, it is the growth that matters, not the size of the offering itself. I think that is what the story is trying to say, in the end.
I agree, that’s certainly the risk. If the daughter knew ahead of time that her dad was going to step in and pay for the bike not putting in any effort to obtain the bike could make for a very big temptation.
I think a lot of the debate comes from our inability to understand god’s justice. We are all imperfect and some of this probably starts to look like:
There were things that I wanted to do in life but I’m trying to gain god’s favor. I’m going to do what god wants instead at great personal sacrifice.
My neighbor is doing what they want to do. If they want to be saved like me they should have to “suffer” by sacrificing their will at the altar. If they don’t sacrifice their will to the degree that I am sacrificing mine and they are still saved then the whole process starts to look unfair. I could have done some of my will and I still would have been saved.
Probably an oversimplification.
The day laborer parable comes to mind when I start thinking of the eternal works vs. grace debate. As should be obvious, I still have a little trouble understanding that parable.
🙂 Old-Timer wrote:I’m okay with a message that says we do what we can, no matter how little that is, and God makes up the difference.
And that is exactly the message I feel that so many have lost; He never promises something for nothing, only that our honest efforts will be rewarded, no matter how far short they fall, if we have persisted and tried with all our hearts to do what is required of us.
Processing…. There doesn’t seem to be a clear definition of what role “all we can do” plays, and I’ll throw in that all I can do is probably different from all you can do. That somewhat complicates things more, though, because why should one be held to a higher standard than another when grace applies to all? I’m sure this is also complicated because the LDS bent is included – there are Protestant churches that teach we don’t have to do anything but believe (and I’m not sure they are wrong). FWIW, I prefer the bank account analogy from the same book. At some point the infinite bank account of Jesus is merged with our own. Our lifetime savings and overdraft fees are swallowed up by his eternal balance. There are two perspectives both equally valid.
On one hand – those with a negative balance got a great deal. They knew that they were deficient and not even keeping their head above water. They are humble and their gratitude is full.
Some believe that if these individuals do not fulfill some minimum of effort then God will leave them in their state.
OTOH – Those that had socked away quite a nest egg also got a great deal. And yet they were doing pretty well on their own (relative to other mortals anyway). They may struggle with pride and it not being fair. Why should those that had negative balances be in the same boat as someone that had ammassed so much.
Some believe that this preoccupation with pride and fairness precludes the operation of the atonement at all – leaving the rich man to his riches but denying him the infinite heavenly treasure trove.
Is the poor man better off because of his humility, gratitude, and acknowledged dependance on divine grace? Is the relatively rich man better off for his development of his time and talents while in mortality? Will the same skills that came into play in saving for retirement transfer to being a good steward “over many things”?
I believe that the answers to these questions differ depending on how one perceives the purpose of life and imagines the continuation of life in the heavenly sphere. There are certainly scripures that could support either position.
Old-Timer wrote:…if everyone was told they could have whatever they want with no effort many would make no effort – and, imo, it is the growth that matters, not the size of the offering itself.
Growth is what matters, and in my ideal world a main message would be that the intersection of “whatever they want” and “no effort” is the empty set. “No effort” will never yield anything of value or anything to be desired. It goes along with the law of opposition, we only appreciate being filled because we’ve known hunger, light is only meaningful with the context of darkness etc. Anything that just comes to us will not have the same meaning as something we obtain through struggle. This is why I am so much more interested in gospel topics today than in my younger years.
With that point as a backdrop, my preference would be to talk about the atonement more in the way that Adam Miller does, that God’s grace is complete and always present. I imagine he would say the bicycle is already there waiting for us, we just need to discover it and come to know that we are in fact the rightful and intended owner. The process of that discovery will likely be very different for each of us, but to relate it to the 61 cents: yes, God will take and appreciate our offering, but it wasn’t the 61 cents that enabled the gift of the bicycle.
Yes, the idea is paradoxical, that we can only appreciate things after a struggle – yet God’s love and grace is eternal (without beginning or end) and we cannot struggle to “earn” it. The struggle, at least in part, must be our efforts to understand and recognize God’s ever present and infinite grace. We must overcome the tendencies of the natural man to put boundaries or limitations on God, to feel we can partner, and thus become entitled to an origination ownership stake in the saving grace. We don’t realize that it’s pride that drives us to claim a particle of our salvation through the channels of justice.
Yes God takes the 61 cents. I believe it is a token of our love and appreciation, for when we truly understand the love that God’s grace grows out of (which we only get a glimpse of in mortality) it is our desire to return that love to the best of our capacity. …but the “bicycle” was already there for us, the money didn’t help purchase it. Our desire, our striving, our love, helped us realize the bicycle was right there for us all along.
Orson that is brilliant. I have copied and pasted it. Thank you. Thanks mom3, and I just realized one possible point of misunderstanding. I don’t see salvation in this context as an eternal reward, I see it as more of an eternal opportunity. The love and grace is a gift, the process of eternal progression is our riding the bike or using the gift. nibbler wrote:I agree, that’s certainly the risk. If the daughter knew ahead of time that her dad was going to step in and pay for the bike not putting in any effort to obtain the bike could make for a very big temptation.
I think a lot of the debate comes from our inability to understand god’s justice. We are all imperfect and some of this probably starts to look like:
There were things that I wanted to do in life but I’m trying to gain god’s favor. I’m going to do what god wants instead at great personal sacrifice.
My neighbor is doing what they want to do. If they want to be saved like me they should have to “suffer” by sacrificing their will at the altar. If they don’t sacrifice their will to the degree that I am sacrificing mine and they are still saved then the whole process starts to look unfair. I could have done some of my will and I still would have been saved.
Probably an oversimplification.
I think this is why Pres. Uchtdorf talked about why we keep the commandments (because we love God) in his talk. If indeed grace is a totally free gift and we know that, there would seem to be no reason to keep the commandments. (Some Protestant churches essentially teach this concept – if you’re saved, you’re save no matter what you do.) I understand Uchtdorf’s teaching about that and it’s pretty much why I was not lazy or sinful during my time away. To me there’s little reason to keep the commandments without doing so for the right reason, because you want to and because you love God. Any other reason is Pharisaical – keeping them for the sake of keeping them and to be seen keeping them. This idea is partly why the strict obedience mantra bothers me so much.
Quote:The day laborer parable comes to mind when I start thinking of the eternal works vs. grace debate. As should be obvious, I still have a little trouble understanding that parable.
🙂 I don’t profess to be a scriptorian and understand the parables. Actually, I think the parables have multiple meanings and not just for believers as opposed to unbelievers – I think believers can have different understandings (or multiple understandings) of many scriptural references and be correct on all counts. I have always understood the day laborers to be about grace, actually. In some ways I think the laborers who labored all day are very much like the prodigal son’s older brother – there working all this time, etc. While the ones who came at the end of the day aren’t exactly prodigals (but they could be), the others would seem to have every right to be question why they should get the same pay. But they don’t have that right – grace applies to all of us equally. A lifelong member of the church, even an apostle or prophet, really has no advantage over the 90-year-old who lived a “life of sin” and was baptized close to death – because of grace. One view of that parable is that’s it’s not fair they all get paid the same. That question of fairness is about justice. The parable is about mercy. Generally speaking I think most people want justice for everyone else and mercy/grace for themselves.
Quote:Generally speaking I think most people want justice for everyone else and mercy/grace for themselves.
Yep. Humans are wonky that way.
DarkJedi wrote:I think this is why Pres. Uchtdorf talked about why we keep the commandments (because we love God) in his talk. If indeed grace is a totally free gift and we know that, there would seem to be no reason to keep the commandments.
I think I’m basically with you that the reason we strive to live the commandments is love/grace. There is the added benefit of personal growth. Saying “there is no reason to keep the commandments if grace is a free gift” appears extremely short-sighted to me and we do hear that a lot which is a frustration to me. I love the analogy of the bicycle, and this argument sounds to me like “if the bicycle is a free gift then there is really no reason to learn how to ride it.”
:crazy: It would also be false to assume that protestant churches just teach belief and salvation. In my participation in non-LDS churches I have heard the analogy that being saved is like going to Disneyland. Some just get in and then take a seat just inside the main gate. They are content just to “get in” but are denying themselves of all the joys and privlidges of entry. I have also seen the following scripture applied: 1 Corinthians 3
Quote:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
So if the work endures the fire the builder is rewarded. If the work is consumed the builder is still “saved.” Therefore there is some form of reward beyond being saved.
Many Christian churches use some variation of the phrase “living a full life in Christ” to describe this more advanced, fulfilling, and rewarded lifestyle.
How do we ride the rides of metaphorical Dinseyland?
How do we build a work that endures the fire?
Ho do we live a full life in Christ?
I am thinking of Orson learning to ride his shiny new bicycle.
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