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Cwald – thanks for playing. :clap: Yes historicity matters. Look at the present disaffection from the church. It matters.
Think of all the kids who have The Stripling Warrior story etched in their hearts, and a poster that reads, “Momma’s Boys” in their rooms.
We don’t have posters of “parables” that kids hang up.
Yes it matters. For me the Book of Mormon is parable.
Nibbler: You wrote:” I ask myself: What’s the most important takeaway, spiritual lessons or history lessons? Which lessons have the power to effect change in my life? I can fast and pray as much as I’d like but that will not change history.”
Who’s trying to change history?
“ I can fast and pray to learn from history but at that point it doesn’t matter whether the historic event actually occurred, what matters is whether I am learning lessons that will help me become a better person.”
If God made it historical then it’s important. Look at the incident concerning the ten lepers. That incident could easily have been a parable. It not only really happened but when only one of the ten returned, what do you know but the one was a Samaritan. The Samaritan showed the true Church who was really just before God. Heavenly Father took one of many righteous Samaritans, gave him leprosy, sent him to Jesus to be healed by which He accomplished the same thing He did with the blind man. He showed the glory of God. If God makes an incident historical then the spiritual is already imbedded in the physical.
“Jesus’ parables come to mind. Does it really matter whether Jesus had a specific, historical figure in mind when he related the parable of the prodigal son? If the focus of study becomes whether the event actually occurred I may miss out on the lessons I was meant to learn from the cast of characters that were influenced by events.”
The spiritual is always not only the most important thing to get out of the scriptures, but it’s virtually the only thing to get. Don’t study the characters but study what they are doing.
“In some cases problems with history simply cannot be resolved.”
That might be but then I have to ask you. Who’s resolving them? Is it you? Is it your favorite General Authority? Is it God? If It’s God then you won’t get the car accident wrong and tossing thousands of years into the equation won’t complicate anything.
“All of that said, I understand the place and importance of history in setting the stage for learning spiritual lessons. If one were raised up in Norse mythology their history of creation may include stories of melting ice forming frost giants and a cow. That person would hear stories of how the cow licked deity out of a rock and how man was created from trees.”
Yes. I can appreciate that. In one of the new temple films (and I suppose this is in others, but I first noticed it in this one, the snow capped mountains.) If Adam and Eve had been there at least they wouldn’t have been found naked and, certainly not dressed in fig leaves. Imagine if we, today, came to church dressed in fig leaves. There would be big problems in short order. So setting aside all the frost giants and cows licking deity out of rocks, I see only one problem with it. God didn’t do it that way. So it’s a big problem – and nothing spiritual to learn from it.
“Some puzzles of history will only be solved in the next life, that’s why at times I chose to ignore the unanswered questions of history in an attempt to strengthen my connection with the spiritual.”
Who says they’re unanswered? God? In the quest for truth, I have learned one thing – that if you ask, you shall receive, if seek, you shall find, and if you knock, it shall be opened unto you. It might take decades to happen, but it will happen. If an incident, in scripture, is historical than find the spiritual in it and you might have more spiritual then you can handle.
“LookingHard wrote: DarkJedi wrote:
Pretty much what Nibbler said. It really makes no difference to me if any story in the old scriptures actually happened or not – whether I believe Jonah lived in a fish for three days or not doesn’t matter as long as I get the moral of the story.
I am there now also, but it does not bother me. It used to because I couldn’t figure out how the earth could be completely flooded. Now I don’t see a conflict and I can concentrate on what the takeaway should be – what does it tell me about God.
Further, LookingHard, I’m fine with the person sitting next to me taking everything perfectly literally – and we can carry on a conversation about the same story, reach the same conclusions and he or she might not even know I don’t see it literally. Think about that next time you’re sitting in Sunday School – it really doesn’t matter which of the others in the room believe literally, figuratively, or a mix of the two (and some will fit into each category). That is the beauty of being able to see from this perspective.”
LookingHard, DarkJedi. I’m going to try that. It might not work, I was raised in the old school. Figurative, kind of, gives me the creeps, but that’s my problem. I think I’m going to be able to tell it’s coming.
Somebody said: “Really? I’ve read a large portion of Sorenson’s “Mormon Codex” – it’s proposed as the best evidence for the Book of Mormon (at least the new world sections of it). There were correlations and convergences but very little conclusive. evidence.
I think NHM/Bountiful proposed locations are probably among the only robust pieces of archaeological evidences.
With 1000s of data points in the BoM and millions of data points in the old and new world the probability that a few things would converge is very, very high, even if on an individual level the NHM probability seems very, very low.
I took my kids to the ruins of a Roman villa a few months ago. From a single location we could see their family customs, their religions and cultural practices. We could see the convergence of paganism and Christianity over a 100-200 year period. There was more evidence of Romans in that single location than has ever been found in the last 2 centuries for the Book of Mormon.”
Ok, people, here is some histocracy I can’t handle and never will be able to handle. Why did God let a histocracy get in the way of a histocracy that I feel is really there? And what are the spiritual things I’m supposed to learn from this? I haven’t studied this near enough and, probably, never will. For me, this is where doctrine comes crashing in. I believe, strongly, in the Restoration. People did not destroy the original Church. God took it away. With the restoration the keys of the kingdom of God, or the priesthood were restored. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only church that has these keys making that church the Lord’s Church. So even though I find myself in a jungle of histocracy I can’t explain I just can’t be phased by it. Isn’t that funny? I can’t see anything spiritual about it,either. Without the keys we’re all going to hell anyway, so I’m hanging on for dear life. I’m staying on board. You’ll have to decide what you’re going to do.
Some people are oriented to see things figuratively, while some people are oriented to see things literally. It can be really hard for some of each type to understand, accept and value the other view – but at least valuing differing perspectives is important. Perhaps the best example of this within Mormonism is the temple endowment, since some members see it all as literal (including the Garden of Eden account), while others see it all as figurative (including the Garden of Eden account). It’s interesting that the film used to start by saying the creation account was figurative “as far as the man and the woman are concerned”, but that phrase was deleted. I believe it was deleted NOT because the account was literal but rather because there were lots of members who couldn’t wrap their minds around the statement, so the leadership decided simply to let each member interpret it in whatever way worked best for that person.
Rsbenson, if you want a further view of how I see differing orientations playing out even among the apostles (ancient and modern), read the following post from my personal blog:
“
Paul v. John – Oaks v. Uchtdorf: Why We NEED a Quorum of 12 Apostles” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/10/paul-v-john-oaks-v-andersen-why-we-need.html Rsbenson wrote:Who’s trying to change history?
No one, that was my point. I don’t want to get too carried away with something over which I have no control. Just my way of saying I don’t want to discard
allof the spiritual lessons that I’ve learned should I later find out that some of the events that I thought were historical turned out to be myth. If I learned a good lesson from a myth I can retain that lesson. Rsbenson wrote:If God made it historical then it’s important. Look at the incident concerning the ten lepers. That incident could easily have been a parable. It not only really happened but when only one of the ten returned, what do you know but the one was a Samaritan. The Samaritan showed the true Church who was really just before God. Heavenly Father took one of many righteous Samaritans, gave him leprosy, sent him to Jesus to be healed by which He accomplished the same thing He did with the blind man. He showed the glory of God. If God makes an incident historical then the spiritual is already imbedded in the physical.
Yes, I agree. The spiritual is always imbedded in the physical. I could also see god as purposely injecting symbolism into events. Why did the fish swallow Jonah? Maybe it didn’t really happen and it was just a man-made device to help followers remember. Maybe it
didreally happen and god sent the fish to help people remember the story and give the event additional symbolism that he wanted to convey. Either way I remember the event and am free to extract meaning. I also agree with another point . It can be very important to have the miracles of Jesus and events like the atonement rooted in history.
nibbler wrote:In some cases problems with history simply cannot be resolved.
Rsbenson wrote:That might be but then I have to ask you. Who’s resolving them? Is it you? Is it your favorite General Authority? Is it God? If It’s God then you won’t get the car accident wrong and tossing thousands of years into the equation won’t complicate anything.
I agree, but then the question shifts to how do I know when it’s god, when it’s me, or when it’s my favorite GA? The spirit. I have to rely on the spirit to discover things. At one point in my life it was vital for me to resolve problems with history. Now I’m at a place where I don’t need historical problems resolved. It’s okay to have problems looming out there, problems have become my muse.
Rsbenson wrote:So setting aside all the frost giants and cows licking deity out of rocks, I see only one problem with it. God didn’t do it that way. So it’s a big problem – and nothing spiritual to learn from it.
There may not be much, if anything, spiritual to learn from Norse mythology for you and me. I can only imagine what the ancient Norseman learned from it. To a person raised up in that mythology Christianity would sound just as foreign to them as Norse mythology does to us. Someone raised in Norse mythology might even have strong, undeniable feelings about frost giants and cows. Those are the tools that they had to work with to make a connection with deity while in their probationary state. In their case their unquestionable, yet erroneous version of history would only be ironed out in the next life.
Rsbenson wrote:Who says they’re unanswered? God? In the quest for truth, I have learned one thing – that if you ask, you shall receive, if seek, you shall find, and if you knock, it shall be opened unto you. It might take decades to happen, but it will happen. If an incident, in scripture, is historical than find the spiritual in it and you might have more spiritual then you can handle.
The good thing is that people never stop asking. People don’t generally buy into Norse mythology these days. People kept questioning and that mythology was replaced with another that better explains our world. That new mythology was replaced by yet another, with each iteration hopefully bringing us closer to truth. I’ve picked on the Norse but this process goes back to the dawn of reason. This has played out over centuries and even millennia.
So now many people have the Christ mythology. Is that the final iteration that god intended for us after millennia of asking? We certainly believe so. These are the tools we have to work with to make a connection with god. Are our tools better than the tools that other mythologies provide? We certainly believe so.
We live in interesting times. The world is a much smaller place, we no longer live in isolation. Belief systems are intermingling on a level that they never have before. Some people even appear to be moving on from long held aspects of Christian beliefs. The Pope adopting the big bang and evolution theories, that would have been unheard of in the not to distant past.
What’s interesting about Mormonism is that we believe that humanity
startedwith the Christ mythology, that all the other mythologies represent departures from original truth and that we have finally come full circle with Mormonism. It really turns my iterative process on it’s head… then again the restoration is ongoing. The restoration could have started in 1820, it could have started when the first human asked “Why?” Rsbenson wrote:So even though I find myself in a jungle of histocracy I can’t explain I just can’t be phased by it. Isn’t that funny? I can’t see anything spiritual about it,either. Without the keys we’re all going to hell anyway, so I’m hanging on for dear life. I’m staying on board.
Rsbenson, I appreciate you joining the discussion and sharing your views.
I respect you for such conviction, and say “Amen.” Hang on to your historical literalism with both hands and don’t let go, if that is what brings you closer to God. Stay on board and use that paradigm to forge your path in the Church to become more like Christ and what the scriptures teach.
Don’t let anyone else’s view sway you from what you know. And don’t bother studying it if it doesn’t enhance your faith, that would be a waste of time, I think.
You have your testimony of the restored gospel and keys, now use it to love and serve others who need to hear your testimony and be blessed by the restored gospel.
Thanks for your example, and explaining what works for you.
Rsbenson wrote:If God made it historical then it’s important. Look at the incident concerning the ten lepers. That incident could easily have been a parable. It not only really happened but when only one of the ten returned, what do you know but the one was a Samaritan. The Samaritan showed the true Church who was really just before God. Heavenly Father took one of many righteous Samaritans, gave him leprosy, sent him to Jesus to be healed by which He accomplished the same thing He did with the blind man. He showed the glory of God. If God makes an incident historical then the spiritual is already imbedded in the physical.
That is exactly the point being made, rsbenson. Whether the story of the 10 lepers had been a parable or whether it really happened makes no difference – what we get out of it is the same message. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re talking about with the “spiritual” that you repeatedly referred to, but if it is I don’t see that you and Nibbler disagree at all. If, on the other and, you are saying Nibbler is not spiritual because he doesn’t believe a particular story is literal, I think you’re off base.
DJ, nibbler, Would you both agree, that while parables are helpful, some things necessarily matter if they happened or not?
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Heber13 wrote:DJ, nibbler,
Would you both agree, that while parables are helpful, some things necessarily matter if they happened or not?
Sure, I made a small reference to that in my post. Jesus resurrecting from the dead for instance. That’s a case where I’m not sure which has more power, the legend or the historical event.
A lot of it depends on the subject matter. Suddenly I find the words “spiritual questions deserve spiritual answers” more palatable. Maybe it depends on whether we are seeking historical confirmation or spiritual witnesses. More often than not that may be one and the same thing, maybe one leads to the other.
D&C 29:31:32 wrote:For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea, all things both spiritual and temporal— First spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work—
As with all things there’s a balance to be had.
Heber13 wrote:DJ, nibbler,
Would you both agree, that while parables are helpful, some things necessarily matter if they happened or not?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, of course, and Nibbler gave a good example in the resurrection (unless the whole story of Jesus itself is also symbolic/figurative, in which case, no). I do happen to believe Jesus really lived, really atoned for our sins (in some way we don’t understand), really was resurrected, and really lives. I believe he is the Savior. Nevertheless, he taught in parables, and I’m not sure some of the things he is said to have done (healing, miracles, Lazarus) really did happen. To me, it does matter that Jesus really was resurrected (the miracle of Easter), but it does not matter of Lazarus really was or not, I’m fine with it being a faith promoting story.
That said, I’m also fine if you (generic you) believe all of what is written about Jesus is absolutely accurate and correct. I don’t need to believe God helps me fine my car keys in order to have faith in Him – I’m fine if you do believe He helps you find your car keys if your faith needs that kind of confirmation. Some of you here will note that this has been an evolution of thought for me.
Heber asked Quote:
Would you both agree, that while parables are helpful, some things necessarily matter if they happened or not?I know you asked DJ and Nibbler. I hope you don’t mind if I add my two cents. I think some things do matter. At the phase I am in, I need somethings to have happened. I love the positive growth experiences shared through Holocaust survivors. For me the Holocaust, unfortunately needs to be real, for their lessons from those experiences to be of worth for me. Do I dread the Holocaust. Yes I am sickened by it – yet I gain character traits and values from the lessons the survivors teach me. Some of those are religious, others universal human traits.
Rolling back the scroll of my religion I want the Book of Mormon to have either been a real event(s) or a God guided parable because I anchor some key parts of my life vision by that. It’s not just a good idea. Like the golden rule. I imagine a harmonious community because of the Book of Mormon. If the book is entirely made up and no glorious Zion experience happened – I need to lower my expectations that it will happen.
Right now Jesus is a master life teacher who saw human struggle and gave it hope. He is an individual who gave his life for the love of his heart. I keep dreaming and wanting a place where all of us are trying “To Be Like Jesus.” Heck, right now I will settle for everyone trying to be like Buddha.
For me, though, presently historicity does have a place. If Joseph had said it was book God gave him – I think I would feel better. I think God was exalted to a being that he isn’t through Josephs presentation. And now Joseph becomes exalted through us to a place he wasn’t/isn’t. I don’t hate him, I don’t think he was a charlatan – I just don’t think it happened as we have built it to be and it leads us to goals that are not real.
Heber13, DarkJedi: How should I put this? If you read an historical event in the scriptures and don’t get anything spiritual out of it, I would say, for the most part, you didn’t read it. Getting the message (the spiritual lesson) out of it is the all important thing- unless you’re studying for a detailed quiz game. My thing with the spiritual/figurative interpretations is that, in the past, I have had very little trust in them or the people who used them. To me, it was just mushy incincerety, but you people seems to be very sincere. Amidst the corn stalks of Minnesota, we need people to show up for church, regularily. So when I first read this kind of, going for a walk in the woods on Sunday instead of going to church, talk in bloggersville all I could think of was – Oh, SPARE me! The spiritual message is very important to me. And, by the way, I hang for dear life for a purely doctrinal reason. I don’t think it has anything to do with figurtive/literal. If you leave the Church, you leave a valid baptism, you leave any chance of kingdom of glory. You are a son of perdition, forever. Leaving the Church makes no sense, WHATsoever, for any reason. No matter how stupid things get, I’m staying.
Rsbenson wrote:… If you leave the Church, you leave a valid baptism, you leave any chance of kingdom of glory. You are a son of perdition, forever. Leaving the Church makes no sense, WHATsoever, for any reason…
Quote:If you read an historical event in the scriptures and don’t get anything spiritual out of it, I would say, for the most part, you didn’t read it.
Everyone here has read the scriptures multiple times, and there are some things that simply lack spiritual messages of personal relevance. Again, sweeping statements like this are not only incorrect, they don’t contribute in any way to helping the people who participate here stay LDS.
Quote:If you leave the Church, you leave a valid baptism, you leave any chance of kingdom of glory. You are a son of perdition, forever.
I’m glad that is not Mormon doctrine and that it hasn’t been taught that way from the General Conference pulpit in my lifetime. In fact, as worded, it is not in line at all with actual Mormon theology. It is false doctrine – and it is false doctrine of the most pernicious kind. I am 100% certain that not one modern apostle would say it – simply because not one modern apostle believes it. Leaving the LDS Church and denying the Holy Ghost are VERY, VERY, VERY different things.
Quote:Leaving the Church makes no sense, WHATsoever, for any reason…
I hope that view works for you in your own life for yourself for the rest of your life, Rsbenson – seriously. I also hope even more that, someday, you will know someone well enough to know how wrong and dismissive and uncharitable that statement is. I also hope you read some of what President Uchtdorf has said about those who leave, since he obviously disagrees with you. If you believe he is wrong, that is your choice – but, at least, you should know that you are not in line with what is being taught by the Second Counselor in the First Presidency.
As an admin, I hope you can find a way to participate here while respecting other people’s views and feelings and very real experiences – but if all you can do is continue to dismiss other people’s views and feelings and very real experiences, you might want to find another community where you fit better. I really hope you can come to understand who we are and why we are here – but I think that is going to take some work and patience on your part. I suggest taking some extended time to go through our archives and read with the intent not to correct or comment but simply to understand. If you can begin to see value in our discussions for what they are and for who we are, you might be able to contribute constructively. If you continue to see us as fundamentally different, wrong, misguided, ignorant and in need of correction (which is what comes across in your comments), it will continue to be like a Catholic priest attending Mormon Testimony Meeting and telling everyone how wrong they are – or a Mormon attending Mass and correcting everyone else there.
May God continue to bless you in whatever choices you make in life, and may you be able to stay LDS with peace in your heart.
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