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oh yeah! I forgot to answer the actual topic question. No. The spiritual side of religion requires no evidence except your own direct experience. What could be greater proof than that? The historical side of religion that tries to explain the physical world could/should require evidence, at least if you want to really depend on it for its historical value or its ability to explain natural phenomenon. I don’t think religion does well in that arena though, not generally — not any better than when science tries to explain the meaning of life or define spiritual experiences as chemical events.
Quote:drinking a beer and eating a hot dog [with ketchup] on Fridays allows you to offend every major religious dietary code on the planet
Thanks, Brian. I’ve been looking for a concise description of Sons of Perdition.
😈 Old-Timer wrote:Thanks, Brian. I’ve been looking for a concise description of Sons of Perdition.
😈 “Yea verily, and these are the cursed souls who shall be known as the Sons of Perdition, for they deny the Holy Ghost, or they do eat hot dogs with ketchup and drink beer on Fridays. They shall be cast out, to outer darkness, and to that pit of fire to roast more hotdogs, or perhaps pulled pork or even tasty slow-cooked ribs, with the devil and his angels, like unto an unholy picnic. And in the Celestial Kingdom they shall mourn and weep for them, and dine upon celery sticks with no dressing, and that is all, because the dressing has too many calories, and is bad for your health.”
-Book of Brian’s Nonsense, Chapter 5 Verse 13
Brian Johnston wrote:cwald wrote:However, to use just one example, I think to compare our WoW and our teachings of the consequences of not following it (which is no temple – which equals damnation), with other religious health codes is ludicrous
Just wanted to throw out there that Mormonism is still nicer to it’s slackers…Taken in an orthodox view, literally: WoW violation = No temple = no CK = 2nd place trophy in a super happy place, just not quite as happy as 1st place trophy happy.
Catholic eating meat on Fridays = similar to WoW violation = you are a sinner = you will be tormented forever in a NOT HAPPY place.
That may be true as far as official doctrines go but it seems like practicing Mormons are typically much more likely to believe most of what the LDS Church says and also expect other Mormons to believe and comply with all these doctrines as well whereas many practicing Catholics already don’t believe much of what their church teaches and stands for but they still like it and support it for other reasons (social and family ties, honoring tradition, etc.).
Quote:I would add that I do not think evidence is required when you choose to follow a belief system yourself. But when you require or expect others to follow the same path I think it is justifiable to have to provide more than just your own faith based belief.
I’m not sure what you mean by requiring others to follow it. If you believe it (with or without evidence), you can “expect” others to follow it (you might be disappointed), but unless you have some sort of absolute control over others, I don’t see how you can enforce them following your belief system. Children, I guess whatever, they are just hangers-on anyway until they reach adulthood, so they gotta do whatever they gotta do to make the homeowner happy. They’re just lucky we don’t put them to work on the farm like in days of yore.
As to whether “evidence” is required, I think there are a couple distinctions to make. Belief doesn’t require as much evidence as action does, IMO, and some actions require very little evidence where others require a lot. For example, believing in the Plan of Salvation is not that big a deal; it’s a fairly low cost belief. But being willing to go on a mission or accept a calling in the nursery or wear garments or eschew alcohol or be a SAHM, these are things that require a higher level of “evidence.” You can consider “evidence” for each of these things individually (which is probably more comfortable to those of us here) or you can put it all under some umbrella of “the Church is true” (meaning, I’ll do whatever I’m told by the Church). Frankly, the second approach only gets you so far. If you are asked to do something really “out there” like practice polygamy or store jars of mud in your basement, suddenly you start seeking more “evidence” until you feel comfortable taking action on that belief (which, you’ll recall, the early practitioners of polygamy did until they felt satisfied it was “from God”). In short, evidence is proportionate to the actions you consider taking based on your belief.
Of course, there are plenty of folks who don’t apply much rigor in assessing evidence for their beliefs. Lots of reasons why:
1 – once we believe something, we tend to see favorable evidence and ignore contrary evidence (aka confirmation bias).
2 – when our beliefs change, we literally forget our old way of thinking and immediately begin rewriting our prior beliefs in our minds. It becomes nearly impossible to recreate a belief in something we stop believing or even to remember that we believed it (eventually).
3 – we surround ourselves with others who believe similarly. This is normal human behavior. We don’t pick friends who think we are nuts. We pick friends who think we are smart (because we think the same things they do). That means contrary evidence doesn’t come up often.
Brian – I confess to being a hot dog snob. Ketchup, indeed!
Quote:However – just using the WoW for an example, others, even on this site will say “suck it up” and “quit complaining” because MANY religions have health codes of one form or another. However, to use just one example, I think to compare our WoW and our teachings of the consequences of not following it (which is no temple – which equals damnation), with other religious health codes is ludicrous — To compare LDS WoW to Catholics not eating steak on Fridays could be insulting to me… So, I agree with your point. I agree – we SHOULD have more evidence if we are going to make these kind of claims dealing with one’s eternal salvation and exaltation…
Hopefully I haven’t offended you Cwald, as I have, at times, advocated just “sucking it up”, or, “tolerating it” as the price of participating in the benefits of membership in the LDS community. However, I realize that’s not for everyone nor is it necessarily the right coping mechanism for all people. Hopefully you see that when I express opinions they are more a reflection on my own growth and thinking, rather than a prescription for everyone else. Personally, my goal in is to reduce angst and frustration while still being a full-member of the community. And that means moving from temporarily sucking it up to eventually dealing with Issue X so I do it wholeheartedly. I can’t deal with all issues at once, however, dealing with them one at a time is manageable, while tolerating those other aspects of the religion until one can accept them again, but for different reasons than in the past.
In a way, the last month has been liberating as I’ve participating in traditional LDS meetings, and am believing in doing the outward acts of our religion for reasons that are entirely different from the traditional believer’s reasons…
Quote:…However, as long as there are enough people that continue to believe them and do what they say they can get away with making almost any claims they want and my only recourse is mostly just to not listen to them when I don’t agree.
I’ve said this before. IMO, we have four choices.
1. Believe in it and live it.
2. Don’t believe it, but live it anyway.
3. Leave
4. Be a “lukewarm” stayLDS type of member and live in the shadows as a 2nd class mormon citizen.
I think those are viable choices, however, my participation in this site has helped me see that I was very judgmental toward “lukewarm” brethren when I was a priesthood leader — never openly, but inwardly in my angst. I hope never to be that way again having heard the perspectives of people like yourself on this site, as well as facing my own doubts in the greatest force ever this last year.
Regarding the topic of evidence. I believe there never will be any physical evidence in this life. I’m happier when I stop looking for it.
The only “evidence” we get is highly personal and subjective, and therefore, not evidence at all, And I now accept that people receive evidence that places them in different religions — all of which are valid if they motivate those people to live good, clean lives. I think it was BridgeNight or Hawkgrrl who said that there are different religions because people are at different levels….that makes a lot of sense to me. If I was in the position of Heavenly Father, I would recognize that some people are not ready for the high levels of sacrifice required to be a traditional Mormon believer (TMB). As Heavenly father, I’d rather have them in a Church that requires less sacrifice, or living their LDS religion in a less fervent way. AT keast there are still opportunities to influence them to do good until such time they are ready for higher levels of commitment.
I just will add that I believe the “higher levels of commitment” are better aimed at qualitatively living the Gospel than at quantitatively “doing” in the Church. I believe the former is more important than the latter – and I believe that actually is a core principle of pure Mormonism. Old-Timer wrote:I just will add that I believe the “higher levels of commitment” are better aimed at qualitatively living the Gospel than at quantitatively “doing” in the Church. I believe the former is more important than the latter – and I believe that actually is a core principle of pure Mormonism.
What do you mean by “qualitatively” living the gospel?
SilentDawning wrote:Hopefully I haven’t offended you Cwald, as I have, at times, advocated just “sucking it up”, or, “tolerating it” as the price of participating in the benefits of membership in the LDS community.
No. You haven’t. I appreciate your comments and perspective, and try to use your wordage and opinions to help reason out how others view my own personal philosophy and spiritual pathway.
Quote:The only “evidence” we get is highly personal and subjective, and therefore, not evidence at all
I think this is very true. I wish there was some real concrete, physical, scientific evidence to support the LDS doctrine and theology — but I just don’t think there is.
Quote:What do you mean by “qualitatively” living the gospel?
Old-Timer wrote:I just will add that I believe the “higher levels of commitment” are better aimed at qualitatively living the Gospel than at quantitatively “doing” in the Church. I believe the former is more important than the latter – and I believe that actually is a core principle of pure Mormonism.
If what you are saying is, that it’s more important to commit to and live a quality life focused on the the “true” gospel principles, rather than trying to prove your obedience and righteousness and commitment by giving up all your time and energy doing all the many many many pseudo-commandments that the church bureaucracy has heaped onto it’s members over the last 190 years — then I would agree with you. Unfortunately, “pure mormonism” is not taught in our culture, nor is it the focus of most LDS members.
Quote:it’s more important to commit to and live a quality life focused on the the “true” gospel principles, rather than trying to prove your obedience and righteousness and commitment by giving up all your time and energy doing all the many many many pseudo-commandments that the church bureaucracy has heaped onto it’s members over the last 190 years
What cwald said
Ray, and others, what principles do you think are at the core of “pure Mormonism”? I’m going to open another thread specifically about what each of us would say are the principles of pure Mormonism. Quote:If what you are saying is, that it’s more important to commit to and live a quality life focused on the the “true” gospel principles, rather than trying to prove your obedience and righteousness and commitment by giving up all your time and energy doing all the many many many pseudo-commandments that the church bureaucracy has heaped onto it’s members over the last 190 years — then I would agree with you. Unfortunately, “pure mormonism” is not taught in our culture, nor is it the focus of most LDS members.
Amen to this….
Perhaps one could say the quality of your life isn’t judged by how many people you move, or if you have your geneology done, or if your food storage is in place, or whether you go to the bishop’s storehouse regularly. It’s judged by your relationships with your fellow men against the standards of the gospel. Doing all the thing above could be construed as quality life, but it can be much broader than that — such as helping your non-member neighbour for no other reason than to help him, doing that walk for cancer, or other forms of service that aren’t defined by our LDS culture….
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 is about as blunt as it gets: Quote:Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Not that it has much to do with scientifically provable evidence, but I do believe in quantifiable “evidence” of whether or not religion actually converts a particular person. It’s just that it’s tricky without knowing the internal motivation of one’s actions, since lots of people can do good things for earthly rewards and not out of charity. That’s still better, however, than not doing good things at all.
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