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I’m going to BYU-Idaho in January. Originally I was going to live with my best friend for two semesters, but I got put on a waiting list for winter semester (in the apartment) and so I found a second apartment by “luck/miracle” (someone had an emergency and canceled their contract, leaving a space open). So I’m in two different apartments, one for winter, one for spring. I know that each apartment has a Ward and perhaps a Stake (that is so weird since I grew up in Wisconsin and ward boundaries are the size of a town, stakes the size of half the state). I am not a social butterfly and especially on a campus filled with a variety of people all with the same goal of getting married (except for me, I’m not spending 10 thousand dollars to find a wife, I’m opened minded to finding her at any point in time). So I wanted to attend church with my best friend to at least give me leverage into meeting other people. Which requires my records to be put into the same ward as him. I also wanted to attend a Deaf branch about 30 minutes away (served ASL) and would basically be “ward hopping”. I asked my student ambassadors who to contact to do so, one simply said the Bishop, but the other one told me that it would be the first presidency’s decision and then she said this, ” I am going to tell you what your Bishop is going to tell you when you get up here. While your intentions to go to the deaf branch are noble, they are going to want you to attend your first ward, and then have your records moved to the second ward. That is very common to be in two different wards for different semesters. The wards change drastically every semester, you will not be alone in your moving around.
You have to receive permission from the First Presidencyto permanently attend another ward/branch outside your own. Please don’t see this as a punishment, you will have the opportunity to meet people in your assigned ward that are supposed to be in your life. You will make friends and love your FHE groups and leaders.“ Contacting the Bishop makes sense, I have no problem explaining that I want to visit two wards each month. But being told I need the first presidency’s permission to move my records and then told prophetically that the Lord has a plan for me in my ward and that I’ll basically “ruin” the plan if I move my records really irritated me.
I fully believe in blooming where you are planted. I also know that the Lord puts us in places to help serve. I have been accepted into BYU-Idaho clearly to help people (academically they are almost useless for me), and I fully accept and honor that. I will do what I can to help those that I connect with. However, I don’t know if I want to go so far as to say that He intentionally made one apartment full for winter so I had to pick another apartment that has a different ward that just so happens to have a struggling less active who has an interest similar to mine and the only way that he will get to church is if I invite him to go to church with me in that exact ward no matter what…
I believe in miracles, I believe the Lord has specifically things we are called to do and He puts people in our path. But is it wrong for me to want to visit another ward, be with my friend and be comfortable socially first, then branch out later? I’m pretty sure I won’t go to hell for attending a ward a block away
I don’t know… this simply email has irritated me and I haven’t even made it to Idaho yet. Am I too critical?
The lord may not but church leaders really seem to. 
Quote:I am going to tell you what your Bishop is going to tell you when you get up here. While your intentions to go to the deaf branch are noble, they are going to want you to attend your first ward, and then have your records moved to the second ward.
You probably won’t like my answer but it is my understanding that church attendance is mandatory if you attend BYU-I and you almost certainly are going to have to attend your church approved ward in order for it to “count” towards that requirement.
The relevant portion from the handbook of instruction:
Quote:13.6 Membership Records
Membership records are to be kept in the ward where the member lives. Exceptions, which should be few, require the consent of the bishops and stake president(s) involved and the approval of the Office of the First Presidency. To request an exception, the stake president(s) sends a letter to the Office of the First Presidency for approval.
You never know. I think the stake president would be in a better position to know the needs of the stake and you may get one that says “Sure, the ASL ward could use another person.” You won’t know until you ask and I think that process would start with the bishop in whatever ward you end up in.
Quote:That is very common to be in two different wards for different semesters. The wards change drastically every semester, you will not be alone in your moving around.
Sounds to me like you wouldn’t have a year of being around the same core group even if you stayed in the same ward.
I don’t think you’ll run into any problem at all belonging to one ward, doing what it takes to be counted as active in that ward in order to maintain the university standards, and visiting another ward on the side – meaning you show up for the meetings but you don’t hold callings in the ward you want to visit. Double church. I guess it can last as long as you want to keep that up.
nibbler wrote:The lord may not but church leaders really seem to.
Quote:I am going to tell you what your Bishop is going to tell you when you get up here. While your intentions to go to the deaf branch are noble, they are going to want you to attend your first ward, and then have your records moved to the second ward.
You probably won’t like my answer but it is my understanding that church attendance is mandatory if you attend BYU-I and you almost certainly are going to have to attend your church approved ward in order for it to “count” towards that requirement.
The relevant portion from the handbook of instruction:
Quote:13.6 Membership Records
Membership records are to be kept in the ward where the member lives. Exceptions, which should be few, require the consent of the bishops and stake president(s) involved and the approval of the Office of the First Presidency. To request an exception, the stake president(s) sends a letter to the Office of the First Presidency for approval.
You never know. I think the stake president would be in a better position to know the needs of the stake and you may get one that says “Sure, the ASL ward could use another person.” You won’t know until you ask and I think that process would start with the bishop in whatever ward you end up in.
Quote:That is very common to be in two different wards for different semesters. The wards change drastically every semester, you will not be alone in your moving around.
Sounds to me like you wouldn’t have a year of being around the same core group even if you stayed in the same ward.
I don’t think you’ll run into any problem at all belonging to one ward, doing what it takes to be counted as active in that ward in order to maintain the university standards, and visiting another ward on the side – meaning you show up for the meetings but you don’t hold callings in the ward you want to visit. Double church. I guess it can last as long as you want to keep that up.
Selfish or not, I would much rather dedicate my time and energy getting callings that can help the Deaf group, as I have a place in my heart for them. I have done as much as I can in Wisconsin to help the few Deaf here and it’s amazing. I hope that the stake president or whoever I get in contact with can understand my perspective and arrangements can be made. I know that BYU-Idaho has requirements and I respect them. It’s just unfortunate that they are so strict that I could be seen as “apostate”.
Usually deaf wards are one per stake or multi-stake, crossing ward and stake boundaries – that is all deaf people living in this area regardless of geographical wards/stakes go to the specific deaf ward. I don’t see a problem with you attending there, I think it’d just be a matter of contacting the deaf ward bishop and explaining why. That would put your records there. I don’t think that’s a problem since it’s not a Rexburg YSA ward because if you were a deaf student at BYU-I you’d do the same thing. Church attendance is required at BYU/BYU-I and the only way they know if you are is because of attending the YSA ward – and the deaf ward bishop probably does not report. Where it gets messy is the FHE groups, etc. Then again, if you were a deaf student at BYU-I the same messiness would arise. It would seem like they have a mechanism in place – or not, which is actually better for you because the deaf ward is probably not going to be as concerned about your attendance and you could get away with going to other wards. My experiences have been with Provo, but it’s not like the bishop reports to BYU whether you actually attend or not, it’s up to him as the bishop to ensure you do. If you don’t he can eventually take the action of reporting to the college that you aren’t attending which will leads to lack of ecclesiastical endorsement and dismissal. The threshold in Provo seems to be attending at least once per month – I recognize in most things BYU-I can be much more gestapo-like than Provo.
As Nibbler pointed out, it is church policy that you attend your geographic ward and FP permission is required for deviance. Like many things, in the Corridor a bigger deal is probably made of it than it is our here. I know people in my own stake who don’t attend their own wards and the general consensus that it’s better they attend somewhere than nowhere – but if asked directly the SP will say they should attend their assigned ward (so the trick is not to ask).
My family and I attended a ward outside of where we were zoned because the hours for church meetings did not conflict with my work schedule (as well as other reasons). The bishops sought clarifications from the SP. The SP’s response was to officially affirm the policy but then tell the bishops that they could allow unofficial exceptions to the policy as long as it really was the exception. Sounds to me like my SP knew that sometimes family circumstances warrant some flexibility but that he could not deviate from the policy in his official capacity. http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2976&hilit=+zoned Growing up in Las Vegas, YSA ward hopping was pretty standard. They had student wards etc. Unfortunately that meant that nobody was exactly sure where your records were supposed to be and who was responsible for you administratively. A new policy was instituted doing away with student wards and strongly discouraging ward hopping.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700127213/LDS-Church-drops-student-wards-stakes-for-YSA-units.html?pg=all grobert93 wrote:you will have the opportunity to meet people in your assigned ward that are supposed to be in your life.
Many people derive meaning from believing that life events are pre-planned. That has been taught by some church leaders in the past and was a prominent feature of the Saturday’s Warrior plot. Specifically in the sense of who one should marry, modern church leaders have emphasized that it is up to the individuals to make a good and informed personal choice. Even our temple sealing ceremony asks if the participants are making their commitments under their “own free will and choice.” (As opposed to being compelled against one’s will by an angel with a flaming sword or a future father-in-law with a shotgun!
Finally, I have a funny anecdote about membership records. Some time ago I saw on my own membership record and noticed that while they have a date for my receipt of the Melchizedek priesthood, they do not have the person I received it from. I contacted the ward secretary and told him that it was my father that had bestowed the priesthood upon me. He told me that he could not change the record unless he had verification from two witnesses. I asked if I could be one witness and my father the other and he responded that the witnesses needed to be someone else (IOW the baptizer and baptizee cannot also be witnesses to the baptism). I asked about my sisters or mom (I have no brothers) and was told that the witnesses are customarily men. He even quoted me the scripture about everything being established by the mouths of two or three witnesses.
I just gave up… figuring that if the church didn’t care enough to straighten out the record then neither would I. About a year later we were waiting for tithing settlement and my wife noticed a discrepancy on her own record. The new ward secretary said that he would take care of it. I quickly pointed out the omission on my own record and he said that he would take care of it as well. I did not say a word about the previous ward secretary’s reluctance as I did not want to insert any problems into the mix. I do not know if the first (difficult) ward secretary was following policy or just making stuff up.
:lolno: I attended BYU-Idaho a decade ago and I can tell you that my ward leaders barely knew I existed. One semester I ward hopped and attended a new ward nearly every week. The only problem you will run into is that you will need to renew your ecclesiastical endorsement with your bishop of record every year. So as long as he feels you are somewhat active in his ward, you should be good.
It is common for students to drive to their parents’ house on the weekend and attend church with them. You would likely not be the only one with spotty attendance in your ward.
It might be a kindness to your new roommate if you attend the local ward for a week or two .. Just to help him not feel totally abandoned. Then you can start your ward-hop.. I remember grieving about my BFF and I attending different universities. We always assumed we would be roommates. Then I went to visit her at school. That was a game-changer. The level of filth in her apartment, and the potato forest growing under the sink made me realize that we would remain BFFs if we didn’t room together.
Sometimes friends do better when they are NOT roommates.
You might come to appreciate this semester away from your friend.
Forget the rules about where you can, and cannot attend. I had to do that a while ago. Do what is best for you. The only time this becomes an issue is when you need/want a calling or maybe a TR. If you don’t really care about having a calling, then go to whatever Ward floats your boat (including both Wards) and get involved as much as you want in the social aspect in both Wards.
The leaders really only have the power to deny you callings and recommends, and participation in ordinances. And I question if they would do that if you make enough of an appearance in your home Ward to appear connected.
So, I would attend your home Ward’s Sacrament meeting a couple times a month, or maybe a different meeting if you like it better (SS or PH), and then attend the Ward you want to go to with your friends as much as you want.
If they ask you to take a calling in your home ward, that requires you to be there, exercise your right to say Yes or No, and make adjustments accordingly. If they question why you are in the second Ward, indicate you attend both Wards.
Don’t be afraid to be your own agent. Your time, your commitment, and your attendance is your own — after you consider the reasons for the church guidelines. There are very good reasons for not following them, as I have seen…
SilentDawning wrote:Forget the rules about where you can, and cannot attend. I had to do that a while ago. Do what is best for you.
The only time this becomes an issue is when you need/want a calling or maybe a TR. If you don’t really care about having a calling, then go to whatever Ward floats your boat (including both Wards) and get involved as much as you want in the social aspect in both Wards.
The leaders really only have the power to deny you callings and recommends, and participation in ordinances. And I question if they would do that if you make enough of an appearance in your home Ward to appear connected.
So, I would attend your home Ward’s Sacrament meeting a couple times a month, or maybe a different meeting if you like it better (SS or PH), and then attend the Ward you want to go to with your friends as much as you want.
If they ask you to take a calling in your home ward, that requires you to be there, exercise your right to say Yes or No, and make adjustments accordingly. If they question why you are in the second Ward, indicate you attend both Wards.
Don’t be afraid to be your own agent. Your time, your commitment, and your attendance is your own — after you consider the reasons for the church guidelines. There are very good reasons for not following them, as I have seen…
While I agree with your advice, SD, keep in mind that this particular case is in the context of BYU Idaho. The dogmatism is a bit different there, even for the Corridor. I could see, for instance, that refusing a calling might get a person a denial of ecclesiastical endorsement.
Quote:While I agree with your advice, SD, keep in mind that this particular case is in the context of BYU Idaho. The dogmatism is a bit different there, even for the Corridor. I could see, for instance, that refusing a calling might get University a denial of ecclesiastical endorsement.
Yikes! Then cancel my advice. I think I might not know what I’m talking about. My daughter just got accepted there, and got her ecclesiastical endorsement locally — tell me more about how ecclesiastical endorsements work at the BYU’s and how the whole compliance/obedience thing works. Sounds like they really tie behavior to university priviledges from what you say.
My advice sounds like it might be more for a YSA attending a YSA in a city where there is no university….
Apologies if my advice could have done harm. I retract it now that I realize it’s a different animal at a BYU University…
I don’t think you can realistically get their permission to bless your efforts to go against their policy, so if you ask a bishop’s opinion, they’ll likely give you the answer as they see it. But…you can choose to work within the constraints your working with. Find out what your bishop there needs from you in order to give you the ecclesiastical endorsement, and meet those criteria. It will vary by bishop, and it doesn’t need to be more complicated in nature than that. Some bishops want to know if you are attending church…that’s all…and will not dig into where that is. It all depends on what your leader will be interested in.
There will be a lot of students that get their endorsement without much participation at all. So…my advice is not to kick a hornet’s nest…do you what you feel right about, as long as you can get your education. Find out the requirements and commit to complying with what you need to while at BYU-Idaho. As long as you meet requirements, go to town with doing it however you want so church is meaningful to you, and lovingly interact with others who may disagree with how you do it.
God may not care where your records are, but I think He cares about where your heart is and why you would or would not just go along with the system the church setup for purposes of organization, what good you are bringing to people around you, and how you resolve conflicts.
SilentDawning wrote:Quote:While I agree with your advice, SD, keep in mind that this particular case is in the context of BYU Idaho. The dogmatism is a bit different there, even for the Corridor. I could see, for instance, that refusing a calling might get University a denial of ecclesiastical endorsement.
Yikes! Then cancel my advice. I think I might not know what I’m talking about. My daughter just got accepted there, and got her ecclesiastical endorsement locally — tell me more about how ecclesiastical endorsements work at the BYU’s and how the whole compliance/obedience thing works. Sounds like they really tie behavior to university priviledges from what you say.
My advice sounds like it might be more for a YSA attending a YSA in a city where there is no university….
Apologies if my advice could have done harm. I retract it now that I realize it’s a different animal at a BYU University…
The first year before attending, etc., you get your ecclesiastical endorsement from your home ward bishop. Makes sense, he knows you, etc. I’m only assuming here that BYU-I works the same as Provo (but I can get verification), but the second and subsequent years you get it from your YSA bishop. In the case of my recently returned son restarting at BYU in January his endorsement had to come from his mission president and it was the endorsement that started the ball rolling for re-entry – before that nothing happened.
Further, it isn’t that the endorsement admits one to activities and such, one cannot attend without it. Losing the endorsement is what really happens to those who leave the church while students at BYU, it’s how the kick them out. Likewise, one would lose the endorsement for a serious breech of the honor code (pregnancy, for instance).
My children who have attended BYU tell me there are minimal thresholds of activity/attendance which seem to be similar to what the church in general views as active (at least in Provo) – attendance at church meetings at least once a month.
DJ: I agree. Once a month is usually standard. So ward hopping is fine if you don’t go ask and kick the Hornets nest, just go do. Right? Robert, go where you truly believe you are supposed to be at and pray to know where to go. You will be an amazing member wherever you go! A lot of people have been commenting on the ecclesiastical endorsement. I believe the rule for activity is attending a ward once a month. As long as you are attending a ward, I’m sure you will be fine. I had roommates that would go home every weekend and go to their home ward. If you specifically go and ask your bishop for advice about where to go, he will most likely give you the same answer as the student did. I will say this though – I really enjoyed my experience at BYU-Idaho. Some of the best moments of my life were at that school, in my ward, with my roommates and FHE brothers. I hope your experience is as positive as it was for me. If you do decide to go to the YSA student ward know that everyone is in the same boat. The ward dramatically changes every single semester and no one knows each other at first. Some may be in the ward multiple semesters, but many will not. That can be a positive and a negative thing. It can be positive because everyone is in the same boat in trying to get to know each other. For this reason, wards are really designed to have get to know you activities and encourages you to develop friendships in your FHE group. It can be negative when you get really close to a person and then find out that they will either not be in the ward or not be on track the next semester. That can also make dating difficult. Also know if you decide to go the YSA ward there will be other opportunities for you to be involved in the deaf community. At devotionals there is a deaf section where someone signs all of the devotional. Sitting in that section may help you to get to know some students in the deaf community or others that know sign language. Also, there is the sign language student associations. They may do some activities with the local deaf branch.
If you decide that the deaf branch is where you are supposed to be at, know that you can still be involved with your ward through ward activities and FHE. I would really encourage you to try out FHE – whether or not you go to your own or Adam’s group. FHE is a great way to make friendships and take some stress off by doing something fun.
Good luck, Robert. I am so excited for you. I hope BYU-I is a positive experience for you. You may be surprised with how many others at BYU-I think similar to the way that you and I think. I have had a surprisingly diverse set of roommates throughout my time there.
This has been a lot of very good advice. Thank you everyone. I think I will simply start out attending my assigned ward, explain the situation and then see what happens from there. I hope to help the Deaf in any way I can while still following the rules.
FHEs will be hard for me. They already are, I rarely go to my ysa’s fhes. I usually stay home with my family and attend theirs. I just don’t want to travel 45 minutes away to sit in the corner of the room quietly watching everyone have fun. Whenever I try to get involved, I feel like no one really likes me and just wants to have fun. Or I just stay in the background and enjoy watching everyone else while filming them or something. Every Sunday after church I quietly walk around cleaning up and then I just hang out in the foyer while everyone chats. Eventually people come over to chat with me and I am fine with one on one conversations but having a group of 5 people talking and laughing just makes me get uncomfortable… unless it’s everyone I know I can be myself with. In general I am quiet and hide.
Anyway, thanks again for your advice!
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