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SilentDawning wrote:
Here is where I think what JRH did is a GOOD thing. He knocked himself off the pedestal that members put him on as “larger than life”. As soon as you get these guys off the pedestal, you can enjoy a more peaceful relationship with the church than you did when they were ON the pedestal.
I used to work for a guy who did quarterly employee conferences wearing a dunce cap any time the profits were down. It was his way of forcing everyone (including himself) to remember that he’s just a guy who screws up sometimes too.
Maybe they should roll a D12 to pick an Apostle to wear the cap each Conference.
Contrast Holland’s words with the following President Uchtdorf said:
Quote:
One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?” Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations. Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.’
Which is more Christ Like?
Leadership Roulette — it’s what makes life interesting. Sheldon wrote:Which is more Christ Like?
I’m so glad you brought this up. I was thinking about this talk by DFU, myself. And, I think it’s a very interesting case study. Because to you and me, DFU’s words are more christ-like. That’s because what he said fits our perception the way Jesus was. But to JRH, he might think HE is being christ-like. The thing about trying to lean on what God or Jesus would do is really just a projection of what we would do, and because it’s what we would do, and we think we are right, and God/Jesus are right, then they agree with us, so that’s what God wants. (“God wills it”, from the movie “Kingdom of Heaven”).You see, Jesus was portrayed as both merciful and judgmental. Anti-mormons I’ve talked to, and I mean the kind that think we are going to Hell, not the kind that are stating facts, often lean on Jesus’ invective against the Pharisees as rational for why they can call out the faith of others.
And just to boil it down to two competing and conflicting statements, both attributed to Jesus, we can see that it’s possible to find whichever type of christ-like-ness that we think is right.
In Luke 9, we have this passage:
Quote:And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for
he that is not against us is for us.Yet, that loving, accepting, big-tent, Jesus is contrasted by these words of Jesus, just two chapters later, in Luke 11:
Quote:He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. [Admin Note]: Let’s be careful to remember our mission and our own attempts to be Christ-like.
I left a comment untouched that is against the spirit of this site, but it won’t happen again.
🙂 Old-Timer wrote:[Admin Note]:
Let’s be careful to remember our mission and our own attempts to be Christ-like.
I left a comment untouched that is against the spirit of this site, but it won’t happen again. 🙂
Just for my own clarification, which comment are you referring to as being against the spirit of this site? I’m not sure I’ve seen anything on this thread that I would categorize in that way.SilentDawning wrote:Here is where I think what JRH did is a GOOD thing. He knocked himself off the pedestal that members put him on as “larger than life”. As soon as you get these guys off the pedestal, you can enjoy a more peaceful relationship with the church than you did when they were ON the pedestal. As soon as you recognize that all of these guys have weaknesses, that they are NOT larger than life, then they can make mistakes like JRH did, and you can still feel at peace with that aspect of Mormonism.
That’s a really good point. JRH’s rant showed that he doesn’t have any kind of special apostolic insight as to why people leave – otherwise he wouldn’t characterize leavers as lazy quitters, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. JRH may be representing God but there is no way I believe that these words came from God’s mouth to our ears. He strikes me as a man who’s heavily invested in the church, both professionally and personally, and sees that the bottom line isn’t doing well (despite many assertions to the contrary). Yet, the CEO of a business would have the sense not to say something like this about its customers where people can hear.
I really chafe at the implication that having questions means you’re not fully committed. Some of my questions are big, HUGE, and even JRH can’t answer them. I ride on this same merry-go-round with my husband. He’s angry and upset that I’m trying to make it work (by visiting sites like StayLDS), but if I ever were to leave, the consequences would be dire. I’m darned if I do, and I’m darned if I don’t.
The one that said Elder Holland should be kicked off the Q12. I left it alone as an emotional reaction, but we simply don’t advocate anything like that.
Joni: Quote:“any kind of special apostolic insight”
I don’t think there is such a thing as special apostolic insight. The original apostles, many of whom walked with Jesus personally, were certainly lacking in this regard, and even after the Day of Pentecost, they squabbled over their own opinions and misunderstood the gospel often. They were committed to it, willing to die for it, but they also had huge insight gaps. HUGE.
OK, thanks, Old-Timer. Mostly I wanted to make sure it wasn’t anything I had said, since I couldn’t easily identify an errant post. But now that you mention it, yes, I see what you are saying. I have to say something redeeming about JRH’s lack of filters. I attended a Stake Conference when he spoke sometime in the last 10 years. He made a couple points. One, he looked at the Stake President and indicated/confirmed to the audience that he did not go over the numbers when he visited with the Stake Presidency. I think he was implying he was there for the people and this was not a business trip. That was Apostolic. Second, he commented on how we are a church preoccupied with meetings. He mentioned that in a typical day, he gets up and has meetings all day, ending with this profound statement “And that’s what I have to look forward to for the rest of my life”. People chuckled kind of uncomfortably, but I thought “Oh Yeah! — He’s getting it
So, there is good with the bad. It’s also good to know what he’s really thinking. Too often we hear nice things from people, but their true thoughts — the motives and attitudes that truly explain and drive their behavior — are hidden to us. So, we live in a kind of fantasy world.
Knowing what JRH really thinks is important to people like myself. As a result of his candid expression of his true feelings, I know what to say, and what not to say to an Apostle. If JRH’s comments overlap to any degree with the attitudes held by other Apostles, I know this — If I am ever pulled in for a special meeting with one (common in some Stake Conferences where they bring in all the people with potential and try to reactivate them with the Apostolic presence/influence) I know that is NOT the place to find empathy for my own attitudes. And that is notwithstanding the fact that an Apostle is in a mysterious, and reportedly better plane of existence than other leaders. His comment seems to show he may well be even more intolerant of disaffection, or lack of commitment, than many local leaders. New insights…
Other Apostles may think differently, but I have a feeling their attitudes must be similar in many ways given their policies, and this naked show of opinion from JRH helps me understand how they think. This helps me conduct myself better in my relationship with the church. Not to jump back into full commitment, but to understand the frame of reference of the people at the top so I don’t shoot myself in the foot.
SD – I’ll quote selectively from your post when I reply to my daughters. They’re still seeing it from their “What the heck?” vantage point. Thanks. (They came to me, writing to see if I’d read about this. I don’t encourage rummaging around for things, or bring negative stories immediately to them until I can figure out something from it that is thought-provoking or uplifting. It just reinforces for me the apparently true fact that 2016 is going down as a very difficult year to stay. There has been something every month. Negative Nellie signing out.)
For all the difficulties disenchantment brings to people like us, I will say this — my life is FAR MORE INTERESTING than it was when I was living what I felt was a vanilla life in the church. Even the tension of figuring out how to fit in, stay off radar, keep my options open, while supporting my family presents practical and intellectual conundrums that make this whole experience interesting. I think that might e why God said there must be opposition in all things. Too much harmony makes bad television
Quote:“Don’t you dare bail.
I am so furious with people who leave this church.I don’t know whether ‘furious’ is a good apostolic word. But I am. What on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of patty-cake, taffy-pull experience is that? As if none of this ever mattered, as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered, as if this is all just supposed to be “just exactly the way I want it and answer every one of my questionsand pursue this and occupy that and defy this – and then maybe I’ll be a Latter-Day Saint”?! Well, there’s too much Irish in me for that.” What good does throwing a temper tantrum do? That doesn’t do anything to change the most common reasons why so many people are leaving the Church. Neither does blaming members for not liking the Church more than they do when it is the Church itself that continues to make so many truth claims that are increasingly difficult or impossible to believe in light of some of the blatant contradictions and evidence to the contrary while simultaneously setting the expectation that it is supposedly vitally important for all these claims to be true at the same time and depending on them as justification for relatively costly demands such as tithing, time-consuming callings, home teaching, strict rules, garments, etc.
Why is it any surprise that many people bail out of the Church if they don’t really believe in these claims? That doesn’t mean they are unusually weak or fickle, it is only human and actually makes perfect sense under the circumstances. It sounds like Jeffrey R. Holland has imagined God in his own image with help from the Church and its traditional teachings. Whatever happened to Jesus specifically saying, “My yoke is easy and my burden light (Matthew 11:28-30)?” My experience in the Church was basically the exact opposite of that description because it was always a heavy and tedious burden and pointlessly difficult and complicated in many cases.
To anyone still distressed by Elder Holland and/or Tyler Glenn, I highly recommend hawkgrrrl’s recent post:
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