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I want to ask a general question, and I do NOT want to cross a line with propriety in regards to this site. I live in SLC. There are a lot of different people here–some LDS, some not, and all kinds of people into everything. The diversity here is more so in the LDS communities than elsewhere it seems.
Well, I have a friend who subscribes to one of the “prepper” sites, and they often share dreams, NDE books and pseudo prophecies, and generally many of them believe there will be a “call out”–ie, the prophet will say “Pack your things and your tents, and your food storage–we are going to create a tent city.”
Now, lest you all think this is hokey or what-not, this is a pretty big movement here, and IMHO, we are talking potentially thousands of people feel or are influenced by this. I don’t have real numbers, but I do have an idea from the turn-out for some of the firesides that the NDE folks have given, and the nature of the talks.
Some of the big dreams that seem to waft around follow along the Pontius book that was a fad a few years ago. Now, I have nothing to say one way or another about that book–I want to be neutral because that is NOT the point of my post here. But, the dreams are being shared almost like they are prophecy–people can receive dreams for various things, but I get REALLY nervous when they share them out there everywhere.
At this point, because they break the rules as it were for who is entitled to share dreams and whatnot for the whole church, I don’t place much credibility in them. But, I know people who have had them, and they are rather convinced. So, my post here is NOT with regards to whether I believe those dreams or am even influenced by them–because I am not. They are however (and I do not mean this in a hostile or negative way–so understgand that) entertaining to listen to.
So, in a general way, what do you all think about this dream thing? What is your take on NDE books that cross into that space? Just a general question….
I don’t have the same set of experiences as anyone else alive or dead. There are some things I believe, some things I don’t believe, and many things I don’t have an opinion on one way or the other. If the person sitting next to me believes that we’ll be called to walk to Missouri or that all the apostles have seen Christ, good fr him, he has beliefs that I don’t share. He or you can believe anything, but I don’t want you pushing your beliefs on me. Asking about it or going to a presentation is one thing, trying to convince me when I haven’t asked is another. Some people are dreamers; some are not. Some people see meaning in dreams (spiritual, psychological or something else); some people do not.
Some people are competitive, and it carries into spiritual areas; some people are not.
Fwiw, nobody would interpret most of my dreams spiritually. I definitely am not a spiritual dreamer. However, I do value some people’s dreams that have been shared with me – largely because of their deep meaning to those people and because I see no danger or harm in them. I don’t value dreams I view as harmful, but I also do not try to convince others that those dreams are meaningless unless I am deeply worried about the possibility of some kind of psychosis and the nature of the dreams.
I believe that many members of the Church are attracted to such topics because they seem to provide independent support for their beliefs. We, as Mormons, love that sort of thing. I am skeptical. That said, I would never discount someone’s experience just because it didn’t fit into the “science” of the time but I would still be cautious. During a testimony, one of our ward members described a dream she had about her grandchild who had been killed in a tragic accident. In this dream, she saw her granddaughter happy and working hard on the other side. She obviously considered this some kind of message. A scientific perspective could easily explain such a dream but I would never approach this woman and try to persuade her that her experience was nothing more than her brain putting together random thoughts in a coherent fashion. The dream gave her a great deal of comfort and who am I to take that away from her. Besides, her view of the dream as revelatory might be correct. But dreams that are viewed as applicable to many people or prophecies, make me more leery. It’s always been made clear who receives revelation for who in the LDS Church.
For me dreams are just another form of input. Reading the scriptures, reading a novel, watching a movie, living through an experience, having a dream. It’s just another thing that goes up on the scales, an experience that gives me a “take it or leave it” opportunity. Sometimes dreams are meaningless. Other times dreams create a hypothetical that can feel very real. In the case of the latter it can be interesting to judge my reaction to the hypothetical. Maybe I learn something about myself, maybe the dream only provides food for thought, maybe it’s completely meaningless. In that regard a dream starts to become like any other real experience, something to learn from.
Here’s an example. I know a lot of RMs end up dreaming about either being on their mission again or being called to serve another mission. I can speculate how I might react to being called to serve another mission but in my dream the time for speculation has already passed, I’m
onanother mission. How do I react in the dream? Do those feelings I had in the dream reflect my true feelings? It gives me an experience to mull over after I’m awake. I’ve never seen a 20 foot spider in real life but thanks to dreams I have a pretty good idea of what trials my underpants would be facing if I were to see one.
My primary concern is the commercialization of ‘dreams’ or ‘visions’. I can claim to have had a dream-vision and no one can disprove me. For a quarter, I can tell you what my dream-vision said about you. For a dollar, I can make sure the dream-vision indicates your favor with God. I believe JS was guilty of this. IMO, he did believe that he was a prophet and a large amount of his work was selfless, but he was also prone to turning on the vision-thing for personal advancement (angel and the sword, Nauvoo House).
I was in a Seagull Book recently. Seagull is owned by Deseret Book and, by extension, the Church. I was near the counter when a woman came in and asked if they had “Visions of Glory”. The clerk responded that they didn’t sell it anymore (so, I guess they must have at one time). The customer asked why. The response was that there were “some things” in it that weren’t consistent with the gospel. I mention this, not to discount anyone’s belief it these kinds of visions, but simply to point out the oddity of their place in LDS culture. In the Church, the Prophets/Seers/Revelators are acknowledged to be the only source of this kind of information, yet they never speak on these subjects. I suspect there is a money-making opportunity to speak the words we want to hear our prophets speak, but don’t.
OK…a little bit of an offshoot here. We are taught in the scriptures that preaching for money, or to get gain, is wrong. So what can be said of the books published by GA’s in these book outlets? If they write at the beginning of the book that they take full responsibility for the book, does that “exclude” or “excuse” them from the scripture that condemns this?
LOTS of people quote from these books, even though they are NOT endorsed scripture. In fact, isn’t a large portion of the lessons TAKEN from those books?…
MoF has been quoted in many books, for example, and doctrinal examples. The men who write,…are they not also sharing dreams and all that….that they haven’t been authorized to do, and doesn’t this violate scripture,…or are they excused for some reason?
Rob4Hope wrote:I want to ask a general question, and I do NOT want to cross a line with propriety in regards to this site…Well, I have a friend who subscribes to one of the “prepper” sites, and they often share dreams, NDE books and pseudo prophecies, and generally many of them believe there will be a “call out”–ie, the prophet will say “Pack your things and your tents, and your food storage–we are going to create a tent city.”…Now, lest you all think this is hokey or what-not, this is a pretty big movement here, and IMHO, we are talking potentially thousands of people feel or are influenced by this…
the dreams are being shared almost like they are prophecy–people can receive dreams for various things, but I get REALLY nervous when they share them out there everywhere…I don’t place much credibility in them. But, I know people who have had them, and they are rather convinced. So, my post here is NOT with regards to whether I believe those dreams or am even influenced by them–because I am not. They are however (and I do not mean this in a hostile or negative way–so understgand that) entertaining to listen to…So, in a general way, what do you all think about this dream thing? What is your take on NDE books that cross into that space? Just a general question… So far, I have read 3 different books about NDEs and heard several other accounts of NDEs and/or out-of-body experiences. Personally I like to give these people the benefit of the doubt that they actually experienced what they said they experienced as much as possible and I appreciate that for many of them these experiences were so meaningful that they basically completely changed their perspective on life after that. However, what I don’t believe is that these people really know for a fact some of the answers that some of them claim to know from these experiences based on whatever ideas popped into their minds or visions they had while in this state. For one thing, if there is one of them that claims to know there is definitely no reincarnation you can just as easily find another claiming that there absolutely is reincarnation with just as much conviction and certainty.
If one claims to meet Jesus there are others that will go through the whole experience without encountering Jesus at all but will recognize specific dead relatives. So personally I think these experiences, whatever they really mean, are significantly influenced by what the people that experienced them already believe or are at least open to the possibility of and in many cases they will mostly end up confirming their existing beliefs or expectations. As far as any dreams or visions about the end of the world as we know it or that kind of thing I’m definitely not going to put that much stock in these stories simply because I have dreams about ridiculous stuff that is never going to happen all the time so there’s no question that the mind is already perfectly capable of imagining alternate realities so I have a hard time giving special treatment to something that basically sounds the same or very similar enough to say, “This time it’s for real.”
[Admin Note]: Let’s keep the discussion focused on the original post topic. If someone wants to start a new thread about a new topic, that is fine. As soon as that dream about Denise Richards, Claudia Schiffer and a kiddie pool full of honey comes true, I’ll get to work on the rest. I have had an interesting series of dreams about some pretty specific events, and they happened undeniably accurately, but each also had at least one glaring-yet-irrelevant inconsistency, (weather as seen through a window, person present during the event with no role in it, color of the clothing worn, etc.) and more importantly, they were all situations I couldn’t use to have any impact on the outcome, so the advance notice wasn’t useful.
I think God gets a kick out of tormenting me with dreams because mine keep falling into one of two categories: Either some kind of fortune telling/seeing future events or weird, completely nuts ones that make no sense, even with trying to figure it out. I don’t get dreams to help me work out problems, unless my mind/brain ‘s idea of fixing problems requires completely bizarre things to occur. I will try to explain. Fortune telling dreams: I had a dream about my brother riding his bike where he ended up in an accident later. I dreamed it first, then it happened. I dreamed about stuff that ended up in books/movies (rarely) that got released later. I had a dream about the 9/11 attacks, but it was context and confusing, but it mostly happened. I had dreams that were conversations I ended up having that occurred where I dreamed that they would. The words spoken in one of those dreams was all spoken up until the point where I deviated in the moment from the dream. Sometimes during the event I get Deja Vu/or sense that I had dreamed this and knew exactly what would be said. Or in the case of books/movies, I knew what would happen next and it did. If I do have a dream of the future or something that feels like it would show up in a later book (like having a dream about something that ended up showing up in a harry potter book before it came out), there are great odds that my dream will be accurate. Close to 90% or more.
Completely bizarre: The rest of my dreams are nuts and almost none of these seem to contain anything that would actually help me in some fashion. There is rarely anything coherent or something that was similar to another one. I have been woken up by a dream (it made me wake up because it disturbed me) that didn’t happen again when I went back to sleep, and at others time I have had a dream wake me up, then continue or start earlier (dream events happened earlier, like before the actual events of first dream, then covered first dream events) from the previous one. Some dreams I remember really strong, and it is in my head with additional material appearing due to me being awake.
The only major thing I have noticed is that I am not able to tell the difference, but if it was future stuff then it ends up (usually) happening. It annoys me a lot.
NightSG wrote:As soon as that dream about Denise Richards, Claudia Schiffer and a kiddie pool full of honey comes true, I’ll get to work on the rest.
In honey part is funny. When I first read that,…I saw “money”…and I REALLY liked that one.
😆 Anyway,…the future telling dreams?…never had one. But the problem as I see it is that if someone is going to blab the dream to the world, and they haven’t been authorized to, they are crossing a line.
I recall a Truman Madsen lecture on JS where he quoted Smith as saying the reason God doesn’t reveal more is because we don’t keep it private. Consequently more isn’t revealed.
From some of the sites I’ve seen out there in cyberland, frequented by pseudo-Mormons, they share their dreams large and wide. How can there be any credibility in that, when they are violating this basic tenant of keeping private things private?… I don’t put much stock in those dreams. I do (and I said this before–and respectfully) however find those dreams rather interesting and entertaining often.
I’ve dreamed about the future on a number of occasions. It’s not supposed to happen, but it does. In one case I predicted a particular IRA attack three days before it happened. Whatever you think about predictive dreams, it is completely wrong to underestimate dreams. It’s true that they do not fit into an increasingly mechanized world, but they do tell us great truths about ourselves, and even about others. If we can learn to read them.
We spend a huge chunk of our lives dreaming, and we don’t remember most of it. They are wonderful sources for creatives (like myself – I’ve used them many times for inspiration), and at the very least they can be entertaining.
Gerald wrote:I believe that many members of the Church are attracted to such topics because they seem to provide independent support for their beliefs. We, as Mormons, love that sort of thing. I am skeptical.
I’m skeptical because I haven’t had anything meaningful in dreams, or perhaps I don’t draw much meaning from them and forget or discard them easily. Usually dreams I have tell me what is on my mind. That’s about it.
But I do know others have some amazing stories. Sometimes they give me chills and I think they are cool to hear.
I don’t think this is a uniquely Mormon thing to seek meaning from dreams. I think it is pretty much all religious enthusiasts are attracted to them. There is value for some in having that perspective.
I know some dreamers whose dreams are amazingly accurate – shared with me prior to anything happening, so I know it wasn’t hindsight coloring perspective. I don’t understand dreams, so I retain my general skepticism while being open to real power and meaning in many situations.
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