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As you may know, I have a son serving a mission. He is relatively new to the field. Recently the mission started sending us their newsletter (via email). We didn’t have that sort of thing int he dark ages when I was a missionary, but it’s kind of interesting. At any rate, a couple weeks ago in the section from the president he brought up the subject of electronic cigarettes because he said there are frequent questions from missionaries about them. He said the same rule applies to e cigarettes and regular cigarettes, even if the e cigarettes are the nicotine free kind. I find that very interesting, especially considering that in his area of South America the caffeinated hot drink “mate” (a tea) is fully allowed for members.
Thoughts?
Interesting. E cigarettes came up in one of our coordination meetings a few weeks ago. Thanks for creating the thread. It was just me and the missionaries in our meeting and our thoughts were – sure, why not? But we don’t have any authority to make policy so we didn’t spend a whole lot of time thinking about it.
I’m positive that part of it falls under the appearance of evil umbrella. …but then you have things like postum and o’douls and I don’t see any official prohibitions on those.
I remember a story about a GA of the church (I can’t remember who it was) going to a bar because of work obligations. He ordered milk to avoid the appearance of evil… Water, juice, OJ, soda? Someone might think it was alcohol and he was trying to maintain a standard. He didn’t want someone to see him and get the wrong impression so he ordered milk. No one would confuse milk.
Maybe e cigarettes fall into the same category with his MP.
They could be the perfect tool to help people quit smoking. I see them as a positive thing.
I think they aren’t addressed in Section 89, since they have no tobacco. Thus, I see no problem with them. I’ve said this in other threads, but the way we tend to interpret the “abstain from all appearance of evil” is not consistent with the meaning in the actual verse. It means to avoid evil no matter what it looks like, NOT to avoid anything that someone else might see as bad. That makes a HUGE difference, and it’s an important one. E cigarettes aren’t evil in any way, so the verse doesn’t apply.
nibbler wrote:They could be the perfect tool to help people quit smoking. I see them as a positive thing.
What a great way to look at it, Nibbler! I don’t love the fact that we will withold baptism and/or temple recommend for somebody who smokes, but if we are going to do that, there can be no reason we wouldn’t fully support someone using e-cigs as a substitute. We should thank God that technology allows this aid.I’ve never smoked, but this thread kind of makes me want to get some e-cigs and try them at the next ward party.
nibbler wrote:Interesting. E cigarettes came up in one of our coordination meetings a few weeks ago. Thanks for creating the thread.
It was just me and the missionaries in our meeting and our thoughts were – sure, why not? But we don’t have any authority to make policy so we didn’t spend a whole lot of time thinking about it.
I’m positive that part of it falls under the appearance of evil umbrella. …but then you have things like postum and o’douls and I don’t see any official prohibitions on those.
I remember a story about a GA of the church (I can’t remember who it was) going to a bar because of work obligations. He ordered milk to avoid the appearance of evil… Water, juice, OJ, soda? Someone might think it was alcohol and he was trying to maintain a standard. He didn’t want someone to see him and get the wrong impression so he ordered milk. No one would confuse milk.
Maybe e cigarettes fall into the same category with his MP.
They could be the perfect tool to help people quit smoking. I see them as a positive thing.
I feel like the ‘avoid the appearance of evil’ dictum tends to lead to Pharisaical thinking – you aren’t avoiding looking bad so much as you are avoiding other people’s judgement. The only judgement we should be worried about is the Lord’s. Also, I would never order milk in a bar because a) milk is gross and b) bars don’t really go through a lot of milk (do they?) so I’d worry that it’s well past its expiration date. Then again, I nearly had a heart attack when I went to buy O’Douls to try out an amazing soft pretzel recipe, because what if someone from my ward saw me?
I know some friends and family members that used e-cigs to transition themselves off regular cigarettes. Gosh, if nothing else, it’s at least a step in the right direction. What do you do when science can separate a function from a form? (a cigarette that acts like tobacco, or perhaps doesn’t, and it doesn’t contain the forbidden substance named in a 180 year old revelation)
It’s kind of fascinating to watch as the advancement of technology blurs the lines where religion refuses to adapt to the context of the people trying to live it. I know we were raised to believe the Gospel is eternal and can never change … but really, if you think about it, it has to. Religion is irrelevant if it doesn’t actually address day-to-day life experience. God made a very dynamic and vibrantly changing world, and he placed us in it.
Just a crazy thought: we might have to decide for our self, and not wait to be commanded in all things.
Even more crazy: we might not all come up with the exact same answer, since we all have different experiences.
To the extent that e cigarettes help people quit smoking they are probably a good thing. I do want to point out that some e cigarettes do have nicotine and produce carcinogens in small amounts. Some also argue that they are a gateway drug. While it’s doubtless that they help many people stop smoking, I would not encourage my children to start them up as a harmless social lubricant. I think the jury is still out on them.
I was going to make a small edit to my post. I was going to add… I don’t know the statistics but I have to imagine that most people use e cigs to stop smoking but I imagine that there are some people that start out on e cigs.
I agree with you Joni. Am I completely imagining the milk story? I’ve heard it a few times and I wish I could remember who it was at the center of the story. Perhaps just another cultural fairy tale that got passed around?
Roadrunner, I agree totally that someone using them instead of cigarettes instead of using them to stop smoking is ridiculous. Okay, so I didn’t make up the story about drinking milk because soda had the appearance of alcohol. http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1988/04/in-the-world ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1988/04/in-the-world Quote:I tried holding a glass of 7-Up, but it had the appearance of an alcoholic beverage. Finally I went over to the bartender and asked him if he had any drink that was distinctively different in appearance from an alcoholic beverage. He went into the kitchen and came back with a half gallon of milk and poured me a glass.
That’s all the references to appearance, it wasn’t the central part of his talk. I do remember it being the lasting takeaway from the talk though. It’s the part people remembered and seized on. Avoid the appearance of evil.
There’s another talk by Faust that mentions avoiding the appearance of evil.
http://www.lds.org/new-era/1997/02/on-the-edgehttp://www.lds.org/new-era/1997/02/on-the-edge” class=”bbcode_url”> Quote:The best counsel I ever received about staying away from the edge came when, as a young married man, President Harold B. Lee called me to be a member of a bishopric. He said, “From now on, you must not only avoid evil, but also the appearance of evil.” He did not interpret that counsel. That was left to my conscience.
Quote:For instance, some young adults were surprised when they learned that it was inappropriate for mixed young single adult groups to be involved together in overnight activities. They said, “Why hasn’t the prophet told us?” The Church counsel in this matter has been clear for many years. It should not have been necessary to tell these young people to avoid the appearance of evil.
And an article from the friend:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=fabee3bfad6bb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=fabee3bfad6bb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD I’m offering up these quotes to show that the MP is probably coming from the same place – e cigarettes don’t fly with the appearance of evil teaching that’s been repeated.
Interestingly enough the lds scriptures online even clarify the verse:
1 Thessalonians 5:22 wrote:Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Where appearance is footnoted as meaning “kinds.” Ray pointed this out, I’m just putting it out there explicitly.
Of course e cigs aren’t used by people trying to appear evil, it’s people trying to put off addiction.
Old-Timer wrote:It means to avoid evil no matter what it looks like, NOT to avoid anything that someone else might see as bad. That makes a HUGE difference, and it’s an important one.
I had to laugh out loud when I saw this then quietly say “THANK YOU” that someone other than myself interprets this common phrase this way. Thank you for making this distinction!
Brian Johnston wrote:What do you do when science can separate a function from a form? (a cigarette that acts like tobacco, or perhaps doesn’t, and it doesn’t contain the forbidden substance named in a 180 year old revelation)
It’s kind of fascinating to watch as the advancement of technology blurs the lines where religion refuses to adapt to the context of the people trying to live it.
Thank you bringing this up Brian. I am the EQ instructor in our ward and I taught chapter 1 from the JFS book this week. In it, he starts the chapter by describing all of the technological advancements of the time and how “All of these discoveries and inventions have not drawn men nearer to God!”
When I read that, I really had to chew on it for a while and figure out how I though about the phrase. I would like it better if it said “have not necessarily drawn men nearer to God!” or perhaps that these technological discoveries have not ‘explained away’ God. I have a biology degree with a chem minor. I view scientific discovery as a way of strengthening my testimony of God as the all powerful all knowing biologist/chemist. IT HAS IN FACT DRAWN ME NEARER TO GOD!!!
With regards to the topic at hand, as technology ‘blurs the lines’, it helps me understand that the ‘prophets’ and church leadership today are just as handicapped and reliant on their own cultural and societal biases as early (cough…racist…cough) leadership were to theirs. I know that sounds terribly disrespectful, but I only say it to make the point that sometimes I wonder if I am better off improving my own personal relationship with God and try to ‘interpret’ his rules as they apply to me, my maturity, my understanding, and my situation rather than listen to and obey the commandments from the brethren who seem to quite obviously manage to the masses.
Fwiw, I believe if we stopped and looked at lots of modern technology, we would realize that many of the things that people have rejected for a long time are more understandable now. Simple example:
God as all-seeing and aware of everything that happens in the entire world? Not so ridiculous when you think about 24 hour news shows and, even more directly at the individual level, Facebook.
Old-Timer wrote:Interestingly enough the lds scriptures online even clarify the verse:
1 Thessalonians 5:22 wrote:
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Where appearance is footnoted as meaning “kinds.” Ray pointed this out, I’m just putting it out there explicitly.
1 Thessalonians 5:22:
NRSV: “abstain from every form of evil”
NIV: “reject every kind of evil”
Brian Johnston wrote:
What do you do when science can separate a function from a form? (a cigarette that acts like tobacco, or perhaps doesn’t, and it doesn’t contain the forbidden substance named in a 180 year old revelation)Is nicotine the banned substance? I thought it was tobacco. As far as I understand it, the reason for the ban on coffee is not caffeine as decaffeinated is also banned (keeping in mind of course the caffeinated hot drink Mate is not banned). If you follow that same logic with tobacco, then it may not be nicotine that is banned. That would, of course, make “denicotined” cigarettes, if that’s what e cigarettes are, also banned.
In the case of the mission president, he did make it clear all e cigarettes are banned, not just the kind with nicotine. I wouldn’t have posted this if it didn’t bother me, because I agree with what others have said in that they are useful in helping people quit and it is apparent that quitting smoking was the issue that brought the questions to the MP. My family has had many smokers, and I recognize how extremely difficult it is to stop. I actually hadn’t considered those who might have started with or only ever used e cigarettes.
FWIW, the MP is very much a “strict obedience” kind of guy. Another recent newsletter message from him was about the importance of exactly keeping all mission rules, with blessings coming to those who do keep them exactly to the letter.
I know different missions can have different rules about things. Does anyone know if this is standard in the church, or is it this MP’s rule? I did briefly research, but I don’t see that the church has a position on e cigarettes.
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