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http://www.mormontimes.com/around_church/general_authority/?id=12963 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.mormontimes.com/around_church/general_authority/?id=12963 It appears the brethren are concerned about authentic church history appearing on the Internets (along with all of the crazy rumors being spread by FARMS, natch
Quote:Elder Hafen said there is much discussion out there regarding the methods through which Joseph Smith translated ancient scripture such as the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Bible. That’s all fine and good so long as the questioner is mainly focused on the works themselves, the great mountains of eternal knowledge they contain, and what that knowledge means in the lives of God’s children rather than on the specifics of the revelatory process.
“How (Joseph Smith) received it doesn’t ultimately matter to us very much,” he said.
Ultimately, I agree with this premise. Even though JS looked at a seer stone through his hat to translate the BOM plates rather than the more familiar image of him hunching over the plates with some ordinary-looking specs, and the BOA is a revelation and not a literal translation of some rather ordinary funerary documents, the messages they contain still has a lot of value and worth, for the most part. I hedge because I think I’d be better off if the word “Kolob” never entered into Mormon vernacular. But I digress.
I guess the only beef I have (and it’s a fairly minor one) is that if the mechanisms the Prophet received revelation really aren’t important, why not own up to how he actually did it? How many more well-meaning individuals need to have their testimony shaken when they find out how he actually did it?
I agree, if it doesn’t matter how JS translated the BOM then why don’t we talk about the seer stone & the hat anymore? Why do we teach investigators an altered version of Church History & claim he used special glasses to translate the plates. I appreciate his view of those that are questioning, but I also feel like he’s blaming those who have questions that couldn’t be answered for missing the mark. It’s not a fair assesment!
Quote:I agree, if it doesn’t matter how JS translated the BOM then why don’t we talk about the seer stone & the hat anymore? Why do we teach investigators an altered version of Church History & claim he used special glasses to translate the plates.
Well, there is source material for both claims and some others to boot. I can only say that the seer stone in the hat was covered in my ward’s GD class last year. It’s in “official” sources – the Ensign – whether in the manual or not, but your average lazy, uneducated teacher who takes little time to prepare isn’t going to cover it. As to the missionary lessons et al, the current party line seems to be to let the book (the product) stand on its own spiritual merit, regardless of its origins or the method of translation. There’s certainly something to be said for that since the book either does or doesn’t inspire people to come to Christ, and if it does, it has merit on that front alone.
I’d have to disagree just a little in that it is indeed important. It is important for the Church to be truthful of the means of translation and it is important for members to know about it. Why not? What is the hurt in it? Oh wait it seems like there actually might be some sort of hurt in it … being that it is just a little bit different than what some members had thought it to be. The truth should be able to stand and be heard not be avoided or “made light”.
If nothing “mattered” then maybe the witnesses to the BOM don’t matter. Maybe it doesn’t matter what JS saw. There comes a time when I think people need to realize that everything matters, not just the things that you happen to be comfortable with. It’s almost like a scientist saying “Look at this wonderful conclusion I’ve come to” and then saying it doesn’t matter how they got to the conclusion but to just trust that they are right and so on.
It does matter .. and just when you think something doesn’t matter is when you should be second guessing yourself. Telling people (that believe you to be a messenger of God) that certain things in your religion don’t matter is keeping people from growing, critically thinking or learning to adjust to change/find personal revelation.
I wanted to add .. I wonder who he means by “US”. It doesn’t matter to “US”. Obviously it matters to some people.
Another thing is Church history is of course huge in the Church. Meaning we are taught about it pretty much constantly. If certain pieces of history don’t matter then stop teaching Church history. Apparently the Church history is very important though … SO just teach it like it was. Or take it out of the missionary discussions and lessons at Church. Or go on doing what you are doing …. BUT Don’t say it DOESN’T MATTER. That is just a big giant step backwards on a few levels.
I agree that the Church should not be in the business of weaving fantasies. I’m sure they started by just trying to put their best foot forward, and not trying to deceive. But as info has gotten more available the Brethren are having to face some of that. I think it’s great that an Ensign article recently addressed it, but they’ve got to do more to overcome over a century of serving up pablum in Sunday School and PR/RS lessons. But on another level, they are doing remarkably well. The book “Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling” was written with their complete cooperation and support. It deals with those issues head on. And the “Joseph Smith Project” is unprecedented effort by any Church researching its past. Not only that, all the project is doing is making everything avaialble that can be found anywhere written by Joseph Smith, or about Joseph Smith by anyone who had first hand knowledge of him. They aren’t interpreting it, they are just reproducing it. Two volumes have been published. Thirty are anticipated. The info will also published on the internet. All this is being done by the support and encouragement of the Church. The Church is still struggling with how to present it to its members.
Personally these stories about JS’s marriages, revealing scripture by putting a stone in a hat and then burying your head it it, etc, don’t bother me much. I am much more interested in how the teachings of JS affect me. I have decided that they have a far better affect than anything else I can find. So I just see no reason to get upset.
A long time ago I read a statement by BY that went something like this: I would go to the depths of hell if I could find important truths there. Accepting that my prophet is human, with mortal foibles, is nothing compared to stuff in the OT that Christianity in general accepts: genocide, slavery, killing somebody for violating the Sabbath. After that, 19th century anomalies in the Church are pretty wimpy.
LaLaLove, I think we’re all with you in wanting to see a more accurate version more often told. Dash, good points. I find it a little ironic that some of us have felt like we’ve visited a personal sort of hell, and it had to do with finding some important truths.
I don’t doubt the concept of JS peering into a hat to translate because many religious writers have used womb-like sensory deprivation to tune into the spiritual realm. I think that JS had Geshwind Syndrome and therefore most likely used this technique: http://books.google.com/books?id=LLl1OFkIWoIC&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=geschwind+syndrome+sensory+de See: he Midnight Disease: The Drive to Write, Writer’s Block, and the Creative Brain
By Alice W. Flaherty, Page 260
Flaherty does not write about Mormonism or JS in these references. She is referring to other religious leaders and prophets, but I think that the same concept applies.
Ok…so thanks to the “Mormon Times” website we have Elder Hafen’s message which is:
Quote:focus on the many wondrous components of the gospel for Mormons to focus their study on rather than unsubstantiated details and rumors
…of course, Mormon Times didn’t post the word for word talk, so I guess that information should not be looked at because it could be all “unsubstantiated details and rumors”.Besides, I shouldn’t need to study for myself what things Elder Hafen had to say,
Quote:especially because many of the issue-taking and arguments out there have already been addressed by Mormon scholars and leaders. That’s one problem with the otherwise wonderful information tool that the Internet is.
Wait…should I study what Elder Hafen is saying, or should I not study it because it is on the Internet?
I guess I should ask my bishop to tell me what the church leaders have decided so I don’t have to search these things out for myself and think my own thoughts.
Quote:claims found in anti-Mormon literature are no reason to abandon one’s testimony
The “all encompassing “Anti-Mormon literature” movement …I hate the implication that everything that is not “church sanctioned” is “Anti-Mormon”. Throwing out terms like that is what causes people to attack me when I mention I’ve been studying church history on the internet. “Heber, you should only study what’s in the scriptures…everything else is not of worth! You’re reading Anti-Mormon literature”. Really?? Bushman is Anti? Old-Timer, Brian Johnston, and Hawkgrrrl are all Anti? Let’s not read their thoughts to find out…they are not on an official website…so they are all Anti!!!
👿 Wait…is Mormon Times Anti-Mormon literature…it isn’t an official church site, is it?Quote:“How (Joseph Smith) received it doesn’t ultimately matter to us very much,” he said.
Ok…so it doesn’t matter. Then teach the facts as we know it or don’t know it…but don’t try to shelter me from the reality of it all.
Quote:“I don’t know the meaning of all things,” she said, “but I do know that God loveth his children.”
Great…then teach me that and stop telling me how to vote on marriage.
Quote:When a person considers how unique the church’s understanding of core doctrine differs drastically from the rest of Christianity, “It shouldn’t come as a big surprise that other Christian churches don’t know quite what to do with us.”
This bugs me more than anything else. “Other Christian churches don’t know quite what to do with us.”????? Are you serious? How judgmental of all my christian friends?! How hypocritical!! Here is what they are suggesting about “Anti-Mormon websites”
Quote:There are many wondrous components of the gospel for Mormons to focus their study on rather than unsubstantiated details and rumors
To me, it sounds like Elder Hafen then says from the other side of his mouth:“[Listeners to my speech] have no way of knowing which critical claims [about Christina churches] have already been discredited, and the [Elder Hafen] is certainly not going to tell them right there [what are substantiated details and rumors about other churchs]”
I’m supposed to trust you, Elder Hafen, that what you are saying about all other Christian churches is correct without any substantiation…but all other material from anyone else about Mormonism is garbage.
To me, this article is a joke and Elder Hafen’s message is a joke. I’m usually not “easily provoked” but this talk gets under my grill how Elder Hafen uses his title as “Elder” and church leader to discredit all material on the Internet and try to convince U of U students to be careful to seek things out for themselves because they may find something that goes against what the Brethren have said, which is dangerous ground.
I want to warn my kids about being careful how some stuff on the Internet can be blatantly false or have Anti- messages that they should be scared of…but Elder Hafen’s logic is so weak and “unsubstantiated”. If you are going to try to warn those who are actually intellectually gifted enough to ask important questions and want to seek answers…then don’t use scare tactics to try to keep them from searching out the most important questions to their souls!
Thanks for the warning Elder Hafen…but I’ll decide for myself.
Go, Heber13! Wow, that really did get under your skin. As Ray says, “there are no academic issues; everythingis emotional to somebody.” 😯 😯 What happened to Heber13 and who’s writing this post under the name Heber13????😯 😯 Wow, heber…. I guess, um… welcome to the dark side!
😈 Tom Haws wrote:Go, Heber13! Wow, that really did get under your skin. As Ray says, “there are no academic issues;
everythingis emotional to somebody.”
yeah…you could say it struck a chord with me. When I’ve found a good forum like StayLDS to help me when I needed to work out my issues than I guess I’m a little touchy on Stage 3 church leaders saying there is no value to exploring things on non-church websites and we should just listen to what they have to say (read, pray, go to church).
Oh well. I got my thoughts out…I’m ok with it now…move on, Heber…move on.
😳 swimordie wrote:Wow, heber…. I guess, um… welcome to the dark side!
😈
If the “dark side” includes developing a sense of humor like yours…then book me a room…I’m here to stay!😈 Heber13 wrote:swimordie wrote:Wow, heber…. I guess, um… welcome to the dark side!
😈
If the “dark side” includes developing a sense of humor like yours…then book me a room…I’m here to stay!😈 Wow! I’m on the floor! Welcome aboard, Heber!
(Now who’s buying the beer?!
😆 😆 😆 Okay, a bit more seriously though…these kinds of talks confirm a position I usually take that may offend some here. I really do respect “the brethren.” They do the best they can with what they know. Most of them are not scholars or scientists. They are speakers and motivators. Yes, mostly stage three-ers, talking to stage three-ers. They are necessary at this stage. But if we get down to core spirituality, it IS within each of us. Individually. We each have direct communion with God as to what is “right” for each of us. Just like children, for a time we need parents, teachers…to lead us to where we “graduate” to the next phase. When we cut the umbilical cord, it is scary at first, and we feel lost. But as we put one foot in front of the other, we find our journey continues peacefully. We have experiences that teach us new concepts every day. The pieces of the puzzle come together better than ever before when we depended on others. The time-frame and exact nature of that journey is unique to each of us.
So when these “men” speak of things that contradict another’s teaching that we might have once held as truth, I find it easy to just approach it as a man trying to make sense of what he has been given, the best he can. Love him, give him respect, and continue on your journey.
YOU are the only one that knows how the issue affects your relationship with God.
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