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As I have said in other threads about “A middle way”, I don’t believe in “A middle ground”. I believe instead in individual ways and individual grounds that lie at various points “in the middle of” and all along an artificial, linear spectrum. I understand and respect completely if someone has never experienced what they see as miraculous and, therefore, don’t believe in miracles. However, twice in my life, I have experienced something for which there is NO logical explanation and that was miraculous in a real way. They both were relatively small things that others could explain away if they ignored or rejected one particular element (my total ignorance at the time), but that element is what made them both miraculous – and ignoring it changes the situation in a critical way (allowing them to be normal and not miraculous). So, I personally believe in the miraculous, even though I don’t understand the how, when, or why at all, simply because I have experienced it on two occasions.
I am completely comfortable with those two different grounds being legitimate, real, accurate grounds – and neither of them being extremes but rather differing “middle” grounds
mom3 wrote:
This right now is the burning frustration of many friends and family who have left the church. This was the final blow. How many stories are sensationalized to create an image that under scrutiny doesn’t hold up. As great as it is that this story was retracted, in this era of transparency and authenticity shouldn’t we go back and retract many of the “inspiring” stories we tell. Maybe clean house and start fresh?I don’t have full answers on it. For me I am glad I don’t have to answer that question.
For me this is personal. The way the retraction was worded was eloquent and respectful but when I first heard the story I had my doubts. What would have been the reaction had I said something to DW or during SS or HP? I would have been painted in a very different picture no doubt and probably chastened. I have doubts about the complete authenticity of other inspiring faith promoting stories in the past as well and I sure will in the future. Some in my ward describe everything that happens to them and us all day every day as God’s hand and a miracle. I wish I could be candid but I’m glad my thoughts can’t be heard.
Heber, Thank you for the clarification. I am going to take some time to let your perspective sink in. Your POV is different than mine and I believe that it is worth the effort to ponder, compare, and contrast.
I am a big fan of probability mathematics, because it has so many real life applications. When it comes to “miracles”, there are a few widely held views. The first is, practically everything is a miracle. Take this earth for example. It is at just the PEERFECT distance away from the sun, with the perfect atmosphere composition, the perfect rotational speed to sustain life. How could all of this possibly have happened without the divine intervention of a divine creator? Except, there are an estimated 100 BILLION galaxies out there (from what we can see). In each galaxy, there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy (our galaxy is on the smaller side). Planets are pretty difficult to find outside, but astronomers have been able to detect on average 1.2 planets per star analyzed. There’s probably more. But if we round down to an average of 1 planet per solar system, that still leaves us with 10^22 potential planets.
What are the chances that a single planet can support life? It’s estimated only .006% meet the criteria. So darn right, it’s a miracle we’re alive and walking on this beautiful world! But… we’re still 1 of ~60 Billion.
What are the chances that you are you (genetically)? The average man has between 45-200 million sperm per “round”. If we ignore all other factors (timing, egg, chances of parents meeting and mating), you’ve got at most a 1/40,000,000 chance of being you. You have a better chance of winning the lottery first try. You have a 1/9,000,000 of being struck by lightning in your lifetime… twice. You being here is an absolute miracle.
[img= https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/survivorship_bias.png%5D[/img] Miracles get reported all the time. As was mentioned before, there is often exaggeration, seeing what you want to see, “placebo” effects, rumor distortion, and even deception. But what is the chance of a “miracle” actually happening without divine intervention? 1 in a million? 1 in a billion? I believe in miracles. I’m just not all that impressed by them.
In response to Dande, the mathematician J.E. Littlewood coined “Littlewood’s Law,” which is an extension of what Dande was saying with probability and incredibly large sample sizes. Basically, any event, however rare, can become fairly regular given a large enough sample size. In terms of miracles, Littlewood defined miracles as 1 in a million events. Based on population size, Littlewood’s “law” was that human beings should expect these 1 in a million events, or “miracles”, to occur in their lives at a frequency of roughly once a month. So if you know to look for it, expect to see your monthly miracle 
Dande and DT are really talking some good stuff. That makes sense to me, there can be some mathmatical probabilities put to it and it make sense.
And miracles can still be happening. And if we look for them we are more apt to find them. And if framed through the eyes of faith, they can be stories in our lives with great meaning.
There is also probably some mathmatical rule about beta risk or something like that where we have false alarms or false signals because of bias, thinking something is happening when it is not…I guess like my list of things that could be happening
Religion is the language or mystical realm we frame things to give meaning, and the Galaxy and stars all move around doing their thing.
Miracles can be a matter of perspectives. Imagine the stories we could tell our ancestors from the 1800s when we meet them in heaven. “Yeah, I had this thing that weighed a third of a pound and it was a window into the world. It let me access the whole of human knowledge simply by touching or speaking to it. I could even talk to someone face to face in Australia from SLC, UT. No big whoop. I got super jealous this one time when my friend got one that was even better than that.” They would think it’s a miracle but we would view it as a series of ever improving technology. A miracle can be a simple matter of failing to be able to adequately explain things.
I do wonder whether people need to see things as miracles or sensational stories to get a community over the barrier that prevents them from adopting new ideas. The subject is religion so… the way humans view god has evolved over time. Take the Abrahamic god as it pertains to Christianity. A miraculous, sensational story helps transition people from the god of Moses to the god Jesus. Some time passes, the definition of god begins to solidify again, people start to identify gaps, a first vision and all sorts of visitations happen and because of them people give themselves permission to modify god again, to add whatever the ideals of a modern day are to the existing concept of god, to evolve god. Then more time passes, the definition of god begins to solidify again…
Do people need a sensational story every now and then to dare them to redefine god, something they may have felt was blasphemous without the sensational story? How would we re-initiate this process of refining our definition of god in the modern era where people generally look at sensational stories with a skeptical eye? There’s the concept of science, a constant refinement, continued revelations to modern prophets… but we seldom employ it. We’ve kind of settled into a pattern where the heavy lifting has been done and the current prophet’s role is to maintain the status quo… or to help the church stay the same in an ever changing world.
I’m meandering.
Quote:Isaiah 55
8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
DoubtingTom wrote:
In response to Dande, the mathematician J.E. Littlewood coined “Littlewood’s Law,” which is an extension of what Dande was saying with probability and incredibly large sample sizes. Basically, any event, however rare, can become fairly regular given a large enough sample size. In terms of miracles, Littlewood defined miracles as 1 in a million events. Based on population size, Littlewood’s “law” was that human beings should expect these 1 in a million events, or “miracles”, to occur in their lives at a frequency of roughly once a month. So if you know to look for it, expect to see your monthly miracle
Is that one miracle per month per person or one miracle per month per everyone?
Meh. We can start with any number and arrive at either one.
Here’s the deal… before I begin, do I need to do the disclaimer thing where I say that everyone’s experience is different? There, did it:
Faith precedes the miracle. You want the miracle, you need the faith. But if miracles only come around once per month or worse yet, are once per month for all of humanity, more often than not you’re going to be waiting for that miracle. While you’re waiting you may grow concerned that you don’t have enough faith (or righteousness, or whatever) but the truth of the matter is that miracles are miracles because they are 1) rare and 2) because there’s no tried and true formula for reproducing them, otherwise it would be an ordinary event.
So I wonder whether the stories of others experiencing miracles sets certain people up for disappointment. Whether people develop self esteem issues because they believe they aren’t good enough to experience the miracle.
As always, just shooting from the hip.
nibbler wrote:Is that one miracle per month per person or one miracle per month per everyone?
Littlewood’s law was one miracle per month per individual. But that’s defining miracles simply as 1 in a million events.
If you define miracles as something different then you would get different results.
“Faith precedes the miracle.” Sure it does, if you have faith enough to look for miracles (however you define them), then you will see them. People can recognize the hand of God in their lives in many different ways and call that recogniztion a miracle.
Others like me, rationalize everything and cease to see the miraculous in the rare or coincidental simply because it seems unlikely. But I can still look for that rare 1 a million event in my life each month. If I have enough faith (i.e., look for it hard enough), I’ll see it. But I define “miracles” as beyond logical or natural explanation. Winning the lottery is not a miracle just because it’s rare.
DoubtingTom wrote:
“Faith precedes the miracle.” Sure it does, if you have faith enough to look for miracles (however you define them), then you will see them. People can recognize the hand of God in their lives in many different ways and call that recogniztion a miracle.
That gets a little too circular for me.
I guess it depends on someone’s way of approaching things:
Look for ways that things in my life are miracles – e.g. I’m alive. That’s a miracle if you really think about it… but that invalidates the one in a million rule since everything can be a miracle.
Unexpected and unexplained events that we just have to punt and call a miracle – e.g. a person got into a car wreck and was pinned under their car and someone came along and Superman’ed the car off of them.
If you take a miracle as a one in a million event that occurs every month, just keying of the rarity of an event… there are 2,678,400 seconds in the month of August. One millionth of that… I get 2.67 miracle seconds this month. How does one know they are experiencing the miracle moment? This gets me thinking… what’s the monthly average for the average person engaging in coitus?
nibbler wrote:
They would think it’s a miracle but we would view it as a series of ever improving technology. A miracle can be a simple matter of failing to be able to adequately explain things.
For me, this is why science has always been more inspiring for me beyond religion. 16th century, it was considered a core doctrine that the earth was at the center of all creation; so much so, that Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for preaching that the Sun was simply a star amongst millions of stars, each with their own worlds. A couple hundred years ago, religious theologians considered it blasphemous to consider that an entire speicies in “God’s Perfect Creation” could ever go extinct. And then comes along Mary Anning, and turns the whole world upside down by uncovering DINOSAURS. And the quantum theory which brought us our computers and iPhones, which we use to stay connected across thousands of miles… is something as miraculous and awe-inspiring as anything found in scripture.
I hope nobody things I’m bashing on the bible, or even the Book of Mormon. I STILL love the Book of Mormon. The stories found there resonate deeply within me, and I am very grateful to have them in my life. I just don’t believe them to be 100% fact. While it is often preached, that Mormonism is the same religion Adam, Moses, Christ, and Paul would’ve belonged to, I don’t see that to be the case. As new discoveries and new information is uncovered, religion first denounces it as heresy. It’s against “what is taught in the bible”. A few years later, without any fanfare, they accept it as something they “knew all along”.
I hope the LDS Church as a whole changes to the point where we can say, in Sunday School, “Joseph Smith believed the Nephites were the principle ancestors of the Native Americans. Turns out he was wrong.” And then get back to studying the message. Because that’s what’s important.
For what it’s worth, dande48, I have said in classes that Joespeh and the early saints didn’t understand the Book of Mormon very well – that they didn’t study it carefully to understand the non-religious things it says and implies. I then have used an example or two to explain what I mean. I have gotten thanked for the input and never criticized for it. Getting back to miracles and the probability stats mentioned, I have lived for over 600 months. I have experienced the logically unexplainable (my own definition of miracles) twice. That is once every 300 months.
I am not someone who sees the miraculous in everything around me, obviously. I HATE some of the miracle stories I hear, simply for the implications those who tell them can’t see. I am open to the idea that they happen, but I am skeptical of most examples. Maybe my own experience fits the general idea that we classify miracles as things we can’t explain – and, since I can explain more things, I classify fewer things as miraculous. My education and analytical nature have removed my ability to see many things as miraculous.
In the two cases I mentioned, I literally can see no logical explanation, so I classify them as miracles. To do otherwise would be illogical to me.
In the end, maybe it is that simple.
nibbler wrote:
This gets me thinking… what’s the monthly average for the average person engaging in coitus?😆 😯 😆 On a completely side-tracked note, check out this link:
http://www.rd.com/health/conditions/ejaculate-prevent-prostate-cancer/amp/ If I had a month where I succeeded in getting to 21 that would be a miracle!
I showed the article to my wife to see if she would help me fight prostate cancer more often and she gave me the eye roll.
🙄 I am going to throw caution to the wind and try a different take on miracles and stories. Miracle is a broad word. Wilma Rudolph running was a miracle. Religiously we would not call it a miracle. We would call it tenacity, will power, mind over matter. (Wilma got polio as a child. Was told she would never walk again. Her mom believed different. The rest is history.)
https://www.biography.com/people/wilma-rudolph-9466552https://www.biography.com/people/wilma-rudolph-9466552” class=”bbcode_url”> In our religion we have a story about a boy who is shot by the mob, hip blown off or something, crippled. All the saints have left. He and his mother (and a handful of other women) are left behind. Homeless and desperate. The mother asks the boy if he has faith that he can be healed. He says yes. Day after day she makes a nasty poultice for the hip socket. Eventually “the miracle” happens. The hip socket heals, he walks, he is returned to life.
https://latterdaymiracles.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/the-story-of-amanda-smith-at-hauns-mill/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://latterdaymiracles.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/the-story-of-amanda-smith-at-hauns-mill/ In my mind I see two miracles. Both with strong similarities. I am inspired by both. If Wilma Rudolph had been LDS we would have added some Holy Ghost, Power of Prayer extensions to it. It’s the beast in us.
The beauty of Elder Hollands retraction is that we can use it wisely to begin to clarify the other stories we can fix. Thomas B. Marsh, Sweetwater Miracle, even the cricket stories. With love and kindness we can gently guide conversations to a higher place. Whatever his motives for the story and the retraction, I see a glimmer of good that I can carry with me and use when appropriate.
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