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Since Elder U. is a favorite among many people who come here, I thought it might be good to discuss his talk. I watched it. Synopsis as I saw it.
1. Gave a quote about human nature — we will believe there are a trillion stars far away, but if we are told paint on the wall is wet, we’ll touch it just to be sure for ourselves.
a) He described how he had good medical advice and then turned to the Internet to see if he could find ways of healing faster than simply following the doctor’s advice.
b) Said that often we go to the Internet when we already have good advice.
c) He said there is much outlandish material on the Internet to careful about.
2. Indicated that many people search for the truth, and find it in the LDS Church.
3. Realizes the experience is less than some of us hope, and gave advice.
a) Simplify — he cited layers and layers of programs that act as “sediment” on the beauty of the simple gospel.
b) If the experience isn’t working, go back to the basics.
c) Promises God would develop us and that we would again say the experience works for us.
d) Indicated God accepts us wherever we are at — to start from where we are. That God accepts us.
e) Ask ourselves if we are really happy with where we are spending our time…
My thoughts.
1. I think he was speaking to the person who is largely believing but is feeling burned out from the high expectations of the church.
2. He was brilliantly general so each of us can fill in the blanks about what “simplifying” actually means.
3. I am always leery when someone promises me and outcome if I do X. This is a problem for me when the outcome as not under their control, and they have no accountability if that outcome does not occur.
4. I felt his comments wouldn’t resonate with a lot of people who have gone far off believing most things.
5. I don’t believe that going back to basics will actually help me feel Mormonism works for me. As soon as I show up at church all the leaders are all over me wanting me to jump right into callings that serve the church interests — with no thought of what I need right now to feel engaged with just about any organization.
6. His analogy — his Internet search for healing advice after he already had good advice from the doctor. That was a reference to people searching the Internet for details of church history, evidence of the Book of Mormon etcetera. Regrettably, I disagreed with the analogy. The church materials do simplify and whitewash history, and many people feel betrayed by it — and feel the church leaders and published materials are not always a good source of truth — particularly when that truth is not good for the church.
I liked how gentle he was about the topic though. He wasn’t brash about it like some GA’s. And it must be hard for him — he’s an Apostle so of course you know he believes in obedience to authority, holding a TR, and the lifestyle of a Mormon. To have to then be responsible for connecting with all the less active people is a tall order when there is a such a gap between his beliefs, and ours. He does it better than the other GA’s I’ve heard though, and I hope he keeps trying.
What are your thoughts on his advice?
I was a bit disappointed with his talk, which is the only one I heard from that session and that on my Bluetooth at a soccer game. I like the general message, but I do share SD’s concern about the promise and have the same misgivings about such promises. It seemed a bit out of character for Pres. Uchtdorf. My main disappointment though is equivocating the church and the gospel. I do like the simplify message, though. It is indeed what I have done to make the church work for me.
The temple doesn’t work for me. It damages my relationship with both God and my husband. The temple is also terribly complicated, and has little to do with the Savior. I’m not currently attending the temple, and I think that’s very much in keeping with President U’s advice. The point about the Internet is a little sketchy. It actually isn’t great advice to just say to take doctor’s advice and not seek second opinions or more info on the internet. While the doctor may be annoyed the patient doesn’t just listen to them, the doctor moves on to other patients and goes home for her family at night. The patient is the one who has to live with the advice and outcomes. Internet tools for helping patients have more info rather than relying on doctors is the reality of our times. Not foolish practice by patients, unless it is endless research with no action. But…the Internet has information that should be used to check a doctor. And the church leaders.
Interesting point, Heber13. Yes, second opinions are good, but hypochondria is bad. I suppose that’s the distinction. Yes, that is the distinction – and it is a real issue when it comes to the Internet. Second opinions are one thing; endless, alternate extremes and toxicity are other things – and a real, valid concern. Like so many things (almost everything, perhaps), reality lies somewhere in the middle – at different places between the extremes.
True. But it shouldn’t be a realistic expectation to just trust leaders and avoid the Internet. That is old school. If we just trust the leaders and don’t go searching ourselves, we are really living like the Book of Mormon warns…”Apostles and prophets, apostles and prophets. We have apostles and prophets and there cannot be any more apostles and prophets”. I go more with “trust but verify”.
Having lived through family members fighting cancer and diseases…one doctor is confident they have the best advice…but searching for more information has made all the difference.
Anyone who works in healthcare knows this is the reality…people do not just take doctor’s words at face value…because there are other options made possible throught the Internet. That creates some risk for hypochondriacs. But it makes it better for the majority of people who can think for themselves. The end result is that patients will be more responsible to make informed decisions about their healthcare. And healthcare providers will need to stop fighting the change, and use the internet tools to best help the population health…even if that is a change from the good old days when doctor’s words were the only voice of authority for patients.
The landscape changes. I trust my leaders, but will verify their teaching with any and all sources available to me, including my personal experience, including the Internet, and including any holy writings I can get my hands on.
Best the leaders get with the times, and use the internet tools to best help with population spirituality…and let go of “we have all the answers for you…just listen and obey.”
For me, the main message I was inspired by Pres Uchtdorf was to simplify the gospel, and not get tangled in the mountains of sediment that build up over time with programs and good ideas which weigh us down and smother our spirits. Simplify. Live the gospel. Find goodness and live it.
He called for leaders to not burden families, and families to focus on what they need to be happy.
That is a beautiful message.
…even if I believe that can be done by research on the Internet to verify leaders’ messages to me and my family.
That is the message I took, as well. Trust intent and follow your conscience. That is my basic motto.
Take a look at other entities (religions, governments, etc.) that warn people to avoid the internet, why do they do it? Why might our leaders feel they need to do it? Do all religions do it? If so, why? If not, why not? If people became doctors the same way people became BPs, SPs, and GAs in our church you can rest assured that I would be fact checking the heck out of doctors on the internet. Where’d you do your residency BP? And I pick on the BP because more often than not those are the only people most members have access to. Maybe the only advice they are qualified to give is to read a medical journal compiled 1600 years ago or a slightly more recent one published in 1830. Here’s some leeches, get back to me.
No, I don’t care for the analogy. Yes, the answer is somewhere between the extremes so I’m looking to hear “avoid negativity, negativity exists on the internet, avoid it there as well.” A blanket statement to avoid an information source makes it look like there is something to hide or that there’s a propaganda machine that’s being propped up.
SilentDawning wrote:5. I don’t believe that going back to basics will actually help me feel Mormonism works for me. As soon as I show up at church all the leaders are all over me wanting me to jump right into callings that serve the church interests — with no thought of what I need right now to feel engaged with just about any organization.
This. The church culture doesn’t really ask people how they want to engage with their church, it tells them how they are to engage. Is this talk going to be something that can help changes that culture?
Simplify. Many have… and they become a project.
nibbler wrote:This. The church culture doesn’t really ask people how they want to engage with their church, it tells them how they are to engage. Is this talk going to be something that can help changes that culture?
Out of necessity, I HAVE to put people in position they are passionate about in the volunteer organizations I am involved with. Otherwise, they quit or don’t function. I can’t rely on duty, on my being some kind of inspired person, or that the finger of the lord rested on them through me.
I also find commitment goes up when I link whatever I have people doing to their personal interests — letters of recommendation, experience that helps them in their career, using skills they have to benefit society, the opportunity to forge relationships that help them. Those things create great volunteers.
Interesting, Uchdorfts advice conflicts with BKP’s advice that we should never say no to a calling or ask for a release.
I have often wondered what Uchdorfts role is in the 12. They all have different responsibilities, like missinoary work, temple etcetera. Is he about reaching out to the less active as his assignment?
Anyway, this wasn’t one of his best talks. And he CAN’T say the things many of us want to hear — he’s an apostle and wants everyone in the temple, serving actively, and the church moving forward. IF I was in his sticky position, I would consider talks like this:
a) appropriate attitudes of traditional believers toward non-believers
b) respecting boundaries set by other members
c) an antidote talk to BKP’s unwritten order of things
d) things not do do to alienate the less active
e) a talk on the blessings of serving community, and how it is a valid form of priesthod service
f) the distinction between an employee and a volunteer
g) focusing on where a person can get results
h) ways of tapping into the natural passions of less active people
SilentDawning wrote:Out of necessity, I HAVE to put people in position they are passionate about in the volunteer organizations I am involved with. Otherwise, they quit or don’t function. I can’t rely on duty, on my being some kind of inspired person, or that the finger of the lord rested on them through me.
Do you think that could be what church leaders feel they must do? Put people in a position to make them passionate about the church organization, otherwise nothing would get done?
If I understand what you are saying — Not at all. I don’t think they view it that way at all. I rarely see them calling people based on passion unless that person shows up and starts enthusiastically working hard at something, like being a parent who puts on a great activity at a youth activity as a voluntary thing — in some cases that flags the suitability of the person for the calling. But that is an exception, not a rule. I think they HOPE people will get passionate about a calling after not wanting it, but accepting anyway, but it’s only a hope not a proactive attempt to align passion with organizational needs. They have organizational holes to fill and look for warm bodies much of the time. Many roles members fill at church are drudgerous — chapel cleaning, for some, teaching on Sunday, arranging moves for people, priesthood leadership callings, the monotony of home teaching and other programs that take a lot of effort but don’t seem to bear fruit. There is a lot to be done, and you may have wards where very few people have passion for the things the organization needs. If you found all the people that are passionate about such things, those things would never get done. There simply are not enough people who feel passionate about those things for their whole lives.
Therefore, they have had to resort to the Unwritten Order of Things to get people to serve out of a sense of duty. The Unwritten Order of Things (never say no to a calling, etcetera) and claims that calling are inspired tends to be more effective in getting people to do things, so they do that instead. And there are times when they use it to serve temporal/monetary ends such as chapel cleaning. This in my view takes advantage of the good hearts of the members. In a way, I look at it as a substitute for extrinsic sources of motivation such as money, pay, recognition etcetera.
I still remember when I was a young adult, I told my Bishop that I was really interested in taking such and such a calling. It wasn’t a leadership calling, ti was just a front-line calling. I could tell he wasn’t open to the idea — the feeling I got was that you get called where you’re needed and that you don’t seek after position of any kind. So I learned not to tell the priesthood leadership what I wanted to do — only to react to their requests after they made them.
I also accept the church is a different kind of organization than a hospital or a nonprofit organization in the community. Analogies go only so far. Sometimes they just don’t speak to me.
I just didn’t care for this one because many people think that searching the Internet is the problem or a sign of weakness. And that talk will give them ammo to tell those who struggle with church incorrect advice.
Oh well…I will just focus on his message about simplifying. That’s good advice for all.
Heber13 wrote:I also accept the church is a different kind of organization than a hospital or a nonprofit organization in the community.
Analogies go only so far. Sometimes they just don’t speak to me.
I just didn’t care for this one because many people think that searching the Internet is the problem or a sign of weakness. And that talk will give them ammo to tell those who struggle with church incorrect advice.
Oh well…I will just focus on his message about simplifying. That’s good advice for all.
For me, simplifying means a break from the temple, from regular church attendance, and from heft church callings. For me, it means a different kind of service for a while.
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