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November 21, 2009 at 3:09 am #204564
Anonymous
GuestElder Uchtdorf spoke at BYU at the beginning of this month. In his talk, he said the following, with the bolded parts highlighted by me: Quote:Now, the next issue. What about doubts and questions in principle? How do you find out that the gospel is true?
Is it all right to have questions about the Church or its doctrine?[and I would add “its history”] My dear young friends, we are a question-asking people. We have always been, because we know that inquiry leads to truth. That is how the Church got its start, from a young man who had questions.
In fact, I’m not sure how one can discover truth without asking questions.In the scriptures you will rarely discover a revelation that didn’t come in response to a question. Whenever a question arose and Joseph Smith wasn’t sure of the answer he approached the Lord. And the results are the wonderful revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. Often the knowledge Joseph received extended far beyond the original question. That is because not only can the Lord answer the questions we ask, but even more importantly, He can give us answers to questions we should have asked.
Let us listen to those answers. The missionary effort of the Church is founded upon honest investigators asking heartfelt questions. Inquiry is the birth place of testimony.
Some might feel embarrassed or unworthy because they have searching questions regarding the gospel, but they needn’t feel that way. Asking questions isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a precursor of growth.God commands us to seek answers to our questions and asks only that we seek with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. When we do so, the truth of all things can be manifest to us by the power of the Holy Ghost. Fear not. Ask questions. Be curious.
But doubt not – doubt not. Always hold fast to faith and to the light you have already received.
Because we see imperfectly in mortality, not everything is going to make sense right now.In fact, I should think that if everything did make sense to us, it would be evidence that it had all been made up by a mortal mind. Remember that God has said, “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Nevertheless, you know that one of the purposes of mortality is to become more like your Heavenly Father in your thoughts and in your ways. Viewed from this perspective, searching for answers to your questions can bring you closer to God, strengthening your testimony instead of shaking it.
It’s true that faith is not a perfect knowledge, but as you exercise your faith, applying gospel principles every day under any circumstances, apply those principles wherever you are.And whenever it is, you will taste the sweet fruits of the gospel, and by this fruit you will know of its truth. I’m interested in your reactions – and I hope they will not be immediate or hasty. I read this more than once, and, while I might quibble here and there if I was in the mood, I was moved by what he said and how he said it.
Finally, before anyone reacts to the “doubt not” wording, I offer the following post I wrote a while ago about what I think he means by “doubt” – that he means a foundational skepticism rather than uncertainty. (“Faith, Doubt and Enduring Uncertainty” –
)http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/04/faith-doubt-and-enduring-uncertainty.html November 21, 2009 at 5:13 am #225443Anonymous
GuestI love President Uchtdorf. I really like what he says. I think we should doubt not
ourselves. That is a very true priciple. And very hard sometimes, especially when it leads us off the beaten path. It is so true that if no one ever asked questions and just went along with the “traditions of their fathers” that no one would ever join the LDS church. No one would ever leave it, either.
I like our foundational story of revelations always following questions.
Now for the part I kinda disagree with:
Quote:Because we see imperfectly in mortality, not everything is going to make sense right now. In fact, I should think that if everything did make sense to us, it would be evidence that it had all been made up by a mortal mind. Remember that God has said, “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
I feel that this is used as a cop-out far too often in the church and maybe even other Judeo-Christian religions. This scripture is used all the time as a stop-think exercise. It was used in my institute class yesterday as an explanation for why the God of the OT killed his followers, commanded genocide and other ridiculous things (see Numbers). I disagree. We are not so low and fallen that we cannot understand the ways of God. When we come to something that we logically know isn’t Godly we say “oh, his ways are higher than our ways.” ???
Yes, we can question! We are a questioning people! However, we fear some questions and answers. We fear other peoples questions sometimes, too. I do believe that once the fear is overcome that there is no end to the questions. I could see myself asking questions for the rest of my life.
November 21, 2009 at 5:59 am #225444Anonymous
GuestThanks so much Ray for giving us this extended quote. One of the things I think we might see there is a generational shift since Elder Uchtdorf is considerably younger than President Monson. By the very structure of the Church’s leadership structure we pretty well always have what amount to retired people taking over the reins of the Church and having now been retired for coming on 4 years I sometimes wonder where they get the energy to keep working regular days, every day, and handle the travel schedules that they do. I won’t be hasty about considering this talk, but my first impression comes in relationship to this quote:
Quote:Some might feel embarrassed or unworthy because they have searching questions regarding the gospel, but they needn’t feel that way. Asking questions isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a precursor of growth.
I am thinking that this should be framed and sent to be hung in every Bishop’s and Stake President’s office in the Church. If our local leaders could approach people who are questioning from a frame of mind of “how can I help their spritual growth” rather than in a judgemental or apologetic way we would be much further ahead.
More thoughts to come.
November 21, 2009 at 1:06 pm #225445Anonymous
GuestQuote:God commands us to seek answers to our questions and asks only that we seek with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. When we do so, the truth of all things can be manifest to us by the power of the Holy Ghost. Fear not. Ask questions. Be curious.
Nevertheless, you know that one of the purposes of mortality is to become more like your Heavenly Father in your thoughts and in your ways. Viewed from this perspective, searching for answers to your questions can bring you closer to God, strengthening your testimony instead of shaking it.
It’s true that faith is not a perfect knowledge, but as you exercise your faith, applying gospel principles every day under any circumstances, apply those principles wherever you are.And whenever it is, you will taste the sweet fruits of the gospel, and by this fruit you will know of its truth. Hi Ray, Thanks for sharing Elder Uchtdorf’s quote. I have taken your challenge seriously and read your link as well. It was very good by the way. I was always brought up by my parents and by the church to believe that sincere questioning and wanting to learn spiritual things was a good thing. I like Elder Uchtdorfs talks and am from his generation. Like mentioned in the quote, we would not even have the church if it were not for the questioning mind of Joseph Smith. The story of a young teen searching for answers to important questions, studying/reading what he believed was God’s word (the Bible), visiting other churches, and ultimately realizing that only a direct answer from God himself could clear his confusion, always made good sense to me and touched my heart. The fact that he was persecuted so much right after sharing his story was faith promoting for me. I always liked the part where JS contemplates why, if these people are supposed to be such Christians, do they persecute me? If they think I am misled, why don’t they loving bring me back to the fold or even kindly say its just a delusion of a young boy. It made sense to my mind that if something were from God, Satan would be actively fighting it.
I also agree with Uchtdorf that there should be no shame or unworthiness for having a sincere questioning heart. Bushman made some important statements about that in a talk he gave last summer. He pointed out that members and investigators have so many more questions today because of the internet and other sources and to condemn them for bringing up serious questions is a big mistake. The thing that bothers me so much of late is that many GA’s and church leaders in the past 20 years have tried to hinder or shame those who question too much. They seem to get angry at those who have some serious doubts. Bushman mentioned that in his talk and said they should not be treated like apostates or sinful because they have difficult questions with no easy answers. That we need to be listened to and not patronized. I have found many times with my own local church leaders to have been treated like we are trouble makers, apostates, or difficult because of our questioning spirit. Because pat answers don’t work on us, they get frustrated and say things like, “You just need to believe and have more faith and stop being so intellectual.”
But, here is my question for all of you. Last night my husband was telling me how difficult his disillusionment with the church has been. He said he joined the church over 30 years ago because it made a lot of sense to him and he liked the people. He was impressed with many gospel teachings, like man being able to become like God, and the idea of living prophets and that personal revelation from God is possible. He took the challenge Uchtdorf made in this quote about testing the gospel by living it and see if it bears fruit. The problem is that it did not bear fruit for my husband and many others I have met in the church, nor for me with certain aspects of the church. All GA’s and church leaders assume everyone will get the positive answers that the church is true if you follow Moroni’s promise and live the gospel. In my husband’s case (and partly mine), Moroni’s promise did not work, the Priesthood, when he gave blessings did not work, and the temple experiences turned him off. Personal revelations did not come for him and after 35 years of sincerely trying to get a testimony and wishing it were true, he has left the church and now believes it is false. He said that for him it is like marrying a woman under false pretense. That she presented herself to be this exceptional, dynamic woman with all these abilities but instead did not have the qualities she represented herself with. So, my question is, “Why do some people get all these positive answers and experiences that the church is true and represents all it says, and why do other sincere investigators and members do not?”
Each of us can only go by our own experiences so I respect those who have different experiences than mine. I believe in some things the church teaches but not other things. I do not believe in the idea that it is either all true or all false. I no longer go to the temple for example because it just has not been a positive or uplifting experience for me over the years. I only go to Relief Society now because that is where I still feel the spirit the most. Anyway, thanks for your stimulating questions Ray.
November 22, 2009 at 7:35 am #225446Anonymous
GuestBeautiful, thank you. November 23, 2009 at 7:19 am #225447Anonymous
Guestbridget_night wrote:So, my question is, “Why do some people get all these positive answers and experiences that the church is true and represents all it says, and why do other sincere investigators and members do not?”
bridget, I can’t pretend to know how to answer your question, but I’ve personally been on both sides. I did feel that I got all the positive answers and experiences that the church is true and represents all it says. Then, I discovered where this came from. It came from me. I wanted it bad enough and I, essentially, willed it to happen. I’m not saying that others who were sincerely trying just didn’t try hard enough. But, I don’t doubt that if you look and search and actively try to make those experiences happen, they will happen.
And, I think, that is the key. Those experiences for me, I recognize now that I “made” them happen. They weren’t so much honest inquiry, as they were designed outcomes of a set plan. I needed these experiences to justify my inner-life. To satisfy the intellectual sacrifices but mostly, to live sincerely but for all the wrong reasons. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. It’s just that, for me, there was a breaking point. Eventually, I felt the desire to live sincerely and for all the right reasons.
November 23, 2009 at 3:07 pm #225448Anonymous
Guestswimordie wrote:bridget_night wrote:So, my question is, “Why do some people get all these positive answers and experiences that the church is true and represents all it says, and why do other sincere investigators and members do not?”
bridget, I can’t pretend to know how to answer your question, but I’ve personally been on both sides. I did feel that I got all the positive answers and experiences that the church is true and represents all it says. Then, I discovered where this came from. It came from me. I wanted it bad enough and I, essentially, willed it to happen.
Well said, Swim. In psychology, we call that “confirmation bias,” and I think we Mormons have perfected the process. We are taught from a young age how to tell if something is true/good. We believe the process as it has been taught, then strive to attain the confirmation. Some are objective enough to understand the subjectivity of it, and realize the “witness” is something created internally. This is why it is essential in science to use double-blind process, where the result has no bias by the subject nor the clinician. Can you imagine a person given a few books of scripture (maybe the BoM, the Bhagavad Gita, the Koran, etc)…being told to read each one, pray about them, then come back with “which one is the most true?” sort of study?
I think the experience that for me helped me understand this was when I met MANY people through my life that had at least as much conviction about their spiritual path as I did about my religion’s truth.
Now, to make things very confusing, I’m not convinced that each one of the confirmations is not correct. How’s that for illogical?!
😆 November 23, 2009 at 5:54 pm #225449Anonymous
GuestDear Rix, I loved your post. There have been so many times in science where a researcher has just “felt that something was right”. Watson, Crick and Franklin deduced the structure of DNA. Franklin had invested thousands of hours and performed X-Ray Crystallography of the curious molecule. Watson and Crick had studied, constructed models and rejected dozens of structures – then one day . . . .
When the correct model of DNA was finally constructed, these researchers just knew! More amazing was the fact that this glorious molecule immediately suggested a way that it could be unzipped and replicated. Suddenly, it all fit together perfectly, flawlessly. It’s “rightness” became eternal truth and has led to more truth.
You see, truth always “immediately suggests” more truth. It leads us on the pathway to all truth. As the Doctrine and Covenants admonishes, “We must study it out in our minds, then we must ask if it be right”. Truth does burn.
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