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I never quite understood the point of all the thees and thous in prayers. As far as I’m aware, English is the only language where the convention is to use archaic pronouns when talking with God. From what I understand, Spanish uses a more informal form of conjugations/pronouns that you would use for a close friend- I rather like this idea.
Japanese and Korean use honorifics on names, where (if I’m not mistaken) you use the highest/most respectful honorifics when referring to God. I like this too.
But in both these cases, the language is used in typical communication. I believe it is fairly common to use -sama or at least -san in everyday Japanese life, for instance.
Then with English… Yeah… Sort of an old tradition. I don’t personally see any disrespect in using “you” when referring to God. The only reason I don’t is habit and the fact that the tradition seems to be encouraged by GAs and ‘canonized’ in PMG/the white handbook.
…Which is a bit of a shame because I usually ditch a lot of the formalities when having my personal prayers- including ending a prayer with something like “I love you, Heavenly Father. Good night.” (something inspired by this one investigator I taught on and off)- and feel I get a lot more out of it that way. It’s like I’m actually talking to God instead of writing him a letter. Of course, I still recognize that it’s through Jesus Christ that it is all possible.
The worst part of it is that nobody seems to know how to conjugate archaic pronouns.
PS: Does this belong in Spiritual Stuff? Maybe it should be moved?
Here are two threads from our archives about this topic. It’s fine to comment on this post, but it is good to read previous discussions, as well. http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3063&hilit=Formal+language http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2637&hilit=thee The problem is not the language, but the fact that the meaning of thee and thou has changed since its first use. In the early days, thee and thou were in fact an informal way of speaking. When my wife told me that (she studied English language history) it all made sense. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Archaic language is common in religions… amongst examples I can think of are: * Aramaic (in Judaism)
* Coptic
* Hebrew (pre-revival)
* Latin
* Pali
* Sanskrit
* Church Slavonic
joheri74 wrote:
The problem is not the language, but the fact that the meaning of thee and thou has changed since its first use. In the early days, thee and thou were in fact an informal way of speaking. When my wife told me that (she studied English language history) it all made sense.
I have often pointed this out. Tu/Du are still used this way in various European languages.
Beefster wrote:From what I understand, Spanish uses a more informal form of conjugations/pronouns that you would use for a close friend- I rather like this idea.
Yes, with a caveat. I wouldn’t say ‘informal’ though we often use that term in English to describe the form in Spanish. To me, ‘informal’ sounds like “Dude, you got a light?”. Rather, it is what I would call the ‘familiar’ form. It is used in parts of the Spanish-speaking world for family members, friends and close associates, which I agree is an interesting look at it. In English, we don’t have distinctive pronouns anymore, except in the language of the Bible/(BofM)/(D&C). But because we use the KJV, and because the BofM and D&C use a voice similar to the KJV, that style persists. Since I use the NRSV Bible, I’m accustomed to hearing God’s voice in modern English. But, the KJV was first published in 1611, and it draws on language of the Great Bible of the mid-16th century, which itself relied heavily on the Tyndale Bible of 1535, which borrowed from even older Wycliffe Bible when the translations worked and that was produced in the late 1300’s. It’s probable that the KJV sounded a bit stuffy even in 1611.On Own Now wrote:
“Dude, you got a light?”. [snip] Since I use the NRSV Bible, I’m accustomed to hearing God’s voice in modern English.
“Dude, let there be light!”
:thumbup: Tangent, but: The English phrasing, “Let there be light,” sounds gentle and benevolent (with butterflies winging away around the speaker), like:
Quote:“I am going to be kind and allow light to exist for you (because I love you and want to bless you).”
The Japanese translation is taken from the German and translates best in English as the command (with thunder crashing and lightning flashing in the background):
Quote:“There WILL be light (because I am commanding it to happen, and nobody says no to me).”
Language is fascinating.
Beefster wrote:The worst part of it is that nobody seems to know how to conjugate archaic pronouns.
No, actually the worst part of it is that some people don’t even know that it’s verbs that are conjugated, not pronouns.
But speaking of these archaic pronouns, what’s the plural of “thee”? Is it also “thee”? For instance, if speaking to both the Father and the Son
together, would you say, “We love and honor thee?” Hi, Katzpur, good to hear from you again.
Katzpur wrote:what’s the plural of “thee”?
Thees Ones.On Own Now wrote:
Hi, Katzpur, good to hear from you again.
Katzpur wrote:what’s the plural of “thee”?
Thees Ones.
😆 Katzpur wrote:
On Own Now wrote:
Hi, Katzpur, good to hear from you again.
Katzpur wrote:what’s the plural of “thee”?
Thees Ones.
😆
There are three base words: Thou (subject), Thee (object), Thy (possessive), just as there are for the first person: I, Me, My. If we take the plural forms, they are: Ye, You, Your.There is also the odd case of the difference between Thy and Thine. They both mean exactly the same thing, it’s just that Thy is used before a word that starts with a consonant (except ‘h’, which is inconsistent) and Thine is used before a vowel (or ‘h’, but inconsistently).
Quote:And why beholdest thou the mote that is in
thy brother’seye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine owneye?
Quote:…it hath been said, Thou shalt love
thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. Now some examples of singular and plural forms of Thou, Thee and Thy or Thine:
Quote:Therefore when thou [singular subject] doest thine [singular possessive] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee [singular object]…
Substitute I, Me, My in for the above and notice that it reads very well: Therefore when I do my (mine) alms, do not sound a trumpet before me…
Quote:Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you [plural object]. Cleanse your [plural possessive] hands, ye [plural subject] sinners; and purify your [plural possessive] hearts, ye [plural subject] double minded.
Substitute We, Us and Our in the above and notice that it also reads well: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to us. Cleanse our hands, we sinners; and purify our hearts, we double minded.
Thine is parallel to mine… e.g. thine be the glory not thy be the glory. SamBee wrote:
Thine is parallel to mine… e.g. thine be the glory not thy be the glory.
SamBee, you are right and thanks for pointing that out. When the word that follows is not the object in question, then Mine/Thine is always used. But in modern English, that’s the only time we use Mine. In KJV English, Mine/Thine are also used when there is an object that follows and that object has a vowel sound at the beginning.Consider this modern English sentence: Is he your enemy or
My enemy?… I think he’s Mine. The equivalent KJV English would be: Be he thine enemy or
Mine enemy?… I think he be Mine. Getting back to the original topic, I think I’m starting to realize that in the KJV, this ‘familiar’ form is used in all communication, whether with God, friends or strangers. Consider all these cases where thee/thou are used: – Jesus and the woman at the well. These are strangers to each other, and not on friendly terms. The woman acts surprised that Jesus would even talk to her, yet the entire conversation is thee/thou
– Jesus and Pilot speaking with each other
– Peter speaking with the group outside the council where he denies knowing Jesus… these are clearly strangers talking
– The thieves crucified with Jesus mock and speak with Jesus… thee and thou all the way
– People mocking Jesus on the Cross
In fact, I can’t think of any cases where the non-thee-thou form, what we now call familar or informal form, is used in the KJV… someone else will have to catch me if I’m wrong.
In other words, the language of the KJV is actually neutral about formal/informal, familiar/unfamiliar.
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