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And there are plenty of General Authorities who have openly believed in the idea of eternal progress/progress between kingdoms: Quote:
“Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, “Listen to this!”“Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.”
“There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.”
Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 18https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/the-brilliant-morning-of-forgiveness?lang=eng Original Joseph F Smith quote here:
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-46?lang=eng Quote:The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial” that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory”having before them the privilege also of eternal progress”have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance into the celestial kingdom… they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.”
B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.Quote:“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.”
J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3Quote:“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421More here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xQqZgS0YmZn5b1ePX_v3pVqM_qsP9D2q13tuoRwvJUM/edit Quote:You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and your daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity. When Jesus went through that terrible torture on the cross, He saw what would be accomplished by it; He saw that His brethren and sisters the sons and daughters of God would be gathered in, with but few exceptions those who committed the unpardonable sin. That sacrifice of the divine Being was effectual to destroy the powers of Satan. I believe that every man and woman who comes into this life and passes through it, that life will be a success in the end. It may not be in this life. It was not with the antedeluvians. They passed through troubles and afflictions; 2,500 years after that, when Jesus went to preach to them, the dead heard the voice of the Son of God and they lived. They found after all that it was a very good thing that they had conformed to the will of God in leaving the spiritual life and passing through this world.
Lorenzo Snow, MS 56:49-53; Collected Discourses 3:364-65.
Partially quoted:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&sourceId=32ba76e6ffe0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1 Curtis wrote:From mackay11’s Quote of the Day thread:
Quote:“Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable than even the best of his servants. And the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend.” (Orson F. Whitney – General Conference April 1924)
I don’t get hung up on questions of exclusivity, since I believe God has “all eternity” to accomplish the mission of blessing his children. We see through a glass, darkly. That says it all for me.
Finally, fwiw, I see the degrees of glory as stages in eternal progression through which all but the knowingly rebellious (those who would look God in the eye and swing their fists) will pass eventually. I don’t see them as destinations – except in the sense of being conditions that last as long as they need to last to get us to the next stage.
I found an interesting batch of quotes on “unpardonable sin.” They suggest that actually the unpardonable sin is the unwillingness to repent. We’re taught that the Holy Ghost is what sanctifies us when we repent. So if we deny the Holy Ghost of his role… even when “face to face” with God (swinging our fists, as you say) then how can we expect forgiveness. In other words, if we deny the sanctification of the Holy Ghost, eternally, then we are lost.
From Joseph Smith:
Quote:All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him.
After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him.He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it … From Joseph F. Smith:
Quote:No man can possibly commit the unpardonable sin in ignorance. A man must be brought to a knowledge of Christ; he must receive a testimony of Christ in his heart, and possess light and power, knowledge and understanding, before he is capable of committing that sin. But when a man turns away from the truth, violates the knowledge that he has received, tramples it under his feet,
puts Christ again to open shame, denies His atonement, denies the power of the resurrection, denies the miracles that He has wrought for the salvation of the human family, and says in his heart, “It is not true”, and abides in that denial of the truth, after having received the testimony of the Spirit, he commits the unpardonable sin.From Spencer W. Kimball:
Quote:In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness, where there is no light, Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration.
They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development.mackay11 wrote:
Quote:“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421I compared this to my modern copy, (p. 409) and found the “kingdom to kingdom” part completely gutted. But at least it looks like Talmage was in on the re-write in 1924.
Very interesting. Thanks for these quotes!
Really good post and follow up discussion. I only have to add that It always stuck with me from listening to Terryl Givens MS podcast he discussed briefly it was his thought there are many “spheres” of development. I would add that it might just be every sphere we are in has to each independenly be taught to be our one and only before judgment or we would perpetually procrastinate hard growth. This is a very interesting discussion and I’ve been thinking about it for a couple days. I’m not sure it’s actually taught in the church that the telestial kingdom is better than this mortal life. It is a kingdom of glory, but we can have glory here as well. There’s no good evidence that Joseph Smith said people would commit suicide to get there if they caught a glimpse of it.
Quote:Many of us have heard the statement made—and ascribed to either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young—to the effect that if a person could see the glory of the telestial kingdom he would commit suicide to get there…Well, I am saying this, that over a period of many years I have combed everything Joseph Smith said and wrote, and I can’t find it. Hugh Nibley has done the same with Brigham Young’s words, and he can’t find it. It is hard to prove a negative, of course. What I can say is that we have found a statement from Joseph via Wilford Woodruff that says something else that is close, and I suspect it is the origin of the alleged statement. Elder Woodruff said the Prophet taught this, roughly: that if we could see what is beyond the veil we couldn’t stand to stay here in mortality for five minutes. And I suggest from the context that he was not talking about the telestial kingdom. He was talking about what it was like to be in the presence of God and the family. (Truman G. Madsen, “The Awesome Power of Married Love,” p. 91)
Section 76 does say, “And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding.” Maybe that does mean it’s awesome, but it could mean other things. For my own sake, I hope it’s awesome.Regarding Enoch, Joseph Smith taught:
Quote:Now this Enoch God reserved unto Himself, that he should not die at that time, and appointed unto him a ministry unto terrestrial bodies, of whom there has been but little revealed. He is reserved also unto the Presidency of a dispensation, and more shall be said of him and terrestrial bodies in another treatise. He is a ministering angel, to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation…
Many may have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fulness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fulness as those who are resurrected from the dead.
Teachings of Joseph Smith pp. 169-170
So Enoch may be visiting terrestrial bodies, but it’s just temporary and he has not yet “entered into so great a fulness as those who are resurrected from the dead.”From what I’ve read, it seems general authorities have taught there is no progression from one kingdom to another more than they have taught there is. I read through the quotes mackay listed. It appears only BH Roberts and James Talmage clearly stated there will be such progression. J. Reuben Clark inferred it. As previously noted, that part was removed from Talmage’s book. Consider these quotes:
Quote:After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! (Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 243-244.)
There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end. (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, October 1945)
It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is,
No!The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: “And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.” Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is “worlds without end,” yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights. This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31-34. [Italics in the original.])
Unfortunately, this is a he said/he said argument. General authorities have contradicted each other. Imagine that🙂 I personally do not believe there will be progression from one kingdom to another. The idea of a final judgement and a set kingdom makes more sense to me. I want everyone to have to get a fair shot – I reckon this life and the time spent in the spirit world is enough.I DO NOT MEAN TO BE ARGUMENTATIVE. I don’t mean to discount what anyone says here. I do think it’s good to have more context for some references and to show some quotes with other ideas.
So what’s the truth about families being together outside of the celestial kingdom? I don’t know, of course! I suppose there could be cosmic forces that keep people out of families to a degree. That would kinda suck. I need to think more.
The family aspect of the CK makes little sense to me. In any given family, people have different degrees of development and righteousness. We’re not all equally good, why would we go to the same place? Also do we really want to be with ALL relatives? Many people have creepy uncles, batty aunts, combative siblings, abusive mothers, fathers who abandoned them etc – where do they fit in?
If you really think about it, the Celestial Kingdom is described as a world populated by couples and the spirits they create. Since I believe in a Council / Community of Gods model (“the Gods”), and no sexual procreation at that stage, the description above works for me.
Shawn wrote:From what I’ve read, it seems general authorities have taught there is no progression from one kingdom to another more than they have taught there is.
I’m okay with general authorities being wrong.
😆 All kidding aside, Mormonism has a doctrinal “out” for teaching both positions. One is found in D&C 19 and the other in Jude.
In the first reference, the Lord explains that He sometimes uses hyperbole to reach hearts which might otherwise be unreachable.
Quote:6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures,
that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.In Jude, the writer indicates that we teach the gospel to our audience (depending upon the state of their hearts). Some will be drawn by the Lord’s lovingkindness. Others need to be scared, for their own safety.
Quote:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others
save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Personally, I believe (as evidenced by my own experience and interactions), that how we attempt to “save” others with our preaching is often a better reflection of us preachers than of others as listeners. What that says about specific general authorities is left open to individual interpretation.
I agree, m&g – which is why I actually like that we have leaders at the top who see and preach differently than each other. We have Elder McConkies and we have Elder Uchtdorfs – or, to use Biblical examples, we have Paul and we have James (and we have John in a category all his own). I want the type of diversity that will include at least one voice that speaks to each person – so, for example, I put up with Pres. Packer’s sex rants as something some people need in order to hear just about anything from Elder Wirthlin.
I know that drives some people nuts (hearing apostles with whom they disagree strongly), but I want it as a way to reach some people who need those messages.
If people are eternal what’s to stop them from regrouping as families in the afterlife? If two people want to be together as husband and wife what’s to stop them? Will god put up his arms and prevent people from being together? Deny them their agency in doing so? I find it interesting that the we are so wed to the notion of three degrees of glory… just because some guy said so. I don’t see much benefit in trying to shoehorn beliefs about the afterlife into fitting in with the three degrees of glory, at least in the sense of taking a hard line on what is and what isn’t a CK,TK,TK. I’m just kind of done with it all. Another thing that was said by some guy
That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.
I don’t have much to add about degrees and growth other than that.
SamBee wrote:The family aspect of the CK makes little sense to me. In any given family, people have different degrees of development and righteousness. We’re not all equally good, why would we go to the same place?
Also do we really want to be with ALL relatives? Many people have creepy uncles, batty aunts, combative siblings, abusive mothers, fathers who abandoned them etc – where do they fit in?
I have felt the same way, but I’m in a rare state of mind today… hear me out on this. If there is eternal progression I want to go to a place where everyone is
notequally good. That’s why the world is such a great place to grow. I can be lifted up by following examples of people I observe that display admirable qualities. I can also be an example and help others. Helping others up from their station helps us to attain a higher station. If I was in a place where everyone was at the same level it would be more difficult to grow. I do get separating out people that want to do harm to others, but that’s a different kind of separation than segregating the good from the slightly better.
I get your comment about relatives as well. I think we all are in situations where “life would be easy if it weren’t for
” but going back to the previous thought… having to “deal” with these people can be a source for growth. In fact I think that’s one of the functions of families… to put us in these groups where blood ties obligate us to serve people that we might otherwise leave to the wolves. On a personal level I struggle with a belief in an afterlife. I often see it as nothing more than wishful thinking or a coping mechanism to deal with the futility of life in the face of death.
I think once the limitations of mortality are gone we will like more people than we do now. I think most people have good hearts – in many cases as good as they can be. My grandmother was an adultress… she also used to hit me. While I have done the work for her, it does raise all kinds of issues. I have been thinking a lot about whether I will be able to be with my family after this life if we don’t all “endure to the end” as faithful Mormons. I wonder if the 2nd article of faith applies: We believe that [we] will be punished for [our] own sins, not for Adam’s transgression. We do suffer consequences of Adam’s transgression, but we’re not going to be eternally punished for it. However, according to a traditional way of thinking we could be kept out of the CK by the transgressions of a spouse (unless we accept a replacement spouse in the hereafter, I guess?). Any separation from loved ones could be viewed as a punishment, right? I guess if you believe in hell at all then there are surely people you love who are not going to be there, and if not being with them is a punishment, you’re going to be punished for their transgressions. Yes Momof3, it does get confusing – and there is so much that we just can’t know in this life. After much thought I have come to rely on the concept of God as overflowing with love. We stop our own progression in multiple ways and He is the one to urge us to continue. I have to imagine a next life where we have at least as much freedom and opportunity as we do in this life. We can choose to progress, or we can sit back and limit our accomplishments. If we want to be near someone we are free to make that move, but physical location is the easy part — becoming near emotionally can be a much bigger challenge. We are all in different places emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, etc. We are all (hopefully) progressing in knowledge and wisdom but no two people reside at exactly the same point. The idea that we will only be with those of our same level or “kingdom” is symbolic to me of this invisible separation that I feel even today.
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