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This was going to be part of a reply to another thread on the Plan of Salvation but I thought it fit better here. This is something I’ve been pondering as I’m making the transition from viewing myself as someone’s son to someone’s father. The greatest success of a parent is that their children go out and be successful on their own. That they become functional, independent, well-adjusted human beings. I think God wants us to be functional, independent, well-adjusted eternal beings.
I really like the concept that this life is a time for us to learn to choose right from wrong without constant intervention from God. And I like the idea that we are trying to become like God. What I’m going to say next probably would sound like heresy to many but I’ll just say it. God is God because he chooses right because it is right. He doesn’t act because of fear of punishment or duty or any other such human motivation. He just does right. I think that’s why it is important we are here and cut off. We need to learn to do right without constant direct influence from God…and here’s the possible heresy: I feel that ironically our goal is to learn to act entirely independent from God. The more we progress, the less we need him. We simply begin to choose right because it is right and not out of duty or fear or any other such motivation. We just do right. We just are. Just as God said “I am”.
So something I’ve been pondering is that ultimately is it our destiny to outgrow the need for God? Not outgrow him in the sense that we are more powerful or never want to see him again but that we become completely independent of him. This idea actually makes me love my God more. The gift of eternal self-determination seems much greater than the gift of eternal subservience. I would be grateful to my parents for my life if I was expected to serve them my whole life. But I’m infinitely more grateful that they raised me and sent me out in the world to experience it and now to raise my own family.
I have trouble putting these thoughts in words. But this makes sense that just as I have left my father’s house and gone into the world as an independent adult, I hope my new son will someday leave and lead a happy life. For me it follows that my eternal father would want this same thing. Not want me to come back to his house and sing praises to him forever. I don’t want my son to worship me, I want him to be grateful for the way I will raise him and then to go on and raise his own family.
That’s why the idea of eternal progression is so amazing to me and so much better than any other concept of heaven I’ve ever read about.
So here’s my one gripe. And it’s normal one… If the whole purpose of life is to choose how to exercise agency and choose good for ourselves why does our church preach obedience and conformity to no end and try to take all thinking and learning out of the equation? Ugh.
Sometimes I feel like Adam in the temple in that I do not believe what is being taught hehe.
Anyways these are my thoughts and I thought I would write them out. I have no idea if I’m right or not. Just one attempt to make sense of things. And while my views might diverge a bit (though probably not as much as I imagining) I can still fit them in the framework of the church. I’ve never found another religion I could do that with.
Pure Mormonism is the concept to transcend Mormonism/religion entirely. That is how JS originally set it up to work. We have pretty well come full circle.
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Yes, we do – in the sense you describe. Why then the focus on obedience over personal growth in so many instances? Because many people crave security more than they crave growth that can be frightening.
Wow…I find myself speechless. You guys nailed it…and quite succinctly. Can you please teach this to the rest of the church. I would appreciate it if you could compete this soon as it will make my church experience much more enjoyable Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Thanks for the comments, I’d been pondering this for a while and finally tried to put it in words. I’m glad others have reached the same conclusions. It really helps my understanding of God’s love and desires for us. About the focus on obedience over growth. I feel like we are often encouraged to bury our talents of free agency in the dirt of complete obedience rather than let them multiply through investing them in personal exploration and spiritual growth.
That’s why JS’ statement that we aren’t to be limited by creeds but that we accept all truth is so amazing. We are a religion that worships the concept of truth and seeks it out from whatever source it comes.
Even if it comes through a man who was very imperfect such as JS.
And whether the church or those in it decide to create creeds or not, we should never feel bound by them in our quest for personal growth as they are inherently contradictory to the aforementioned search for truth.
I really love the transcendent qualities of the pure heart of mormonism.
And I agree with cwald that in many ways the organization of the church has come full circle.
wuwei, If you take the geometric analogy of a circle and think about it carefully, I think the Church has come half circle (180 degrees, pointing in the opposite direction of when it started), and is curving back on its own full circle (moving toward its starting point). I think half circle was a few decades ago, and I think the current FP is moving away from that point. I also think most people, including most members, mistakenly see life journeys as linear, since it’s easier to visualize that in our culture. I see progression as less of a circle and more of an upward spiral – round in nature, but unclosed, moving back and forth as it rises eternally. I love the concept of one eternal round – and I think it is more far reaching and open than many people realize.
In short my answer is “I hope not.” Now I realize my answer might not connect with where the question was headed, but even if we progress to a state where we stand shoulder to shoulder, and see eye to eye, and don’t need him in the way we imagine – I hope I will not outgrow the need for him.
If I progress to that point (if it is even possible) I hope I will still get time with him. He has become to my heart a dear friend, a sincere companion, and delightful soul. He cheers my triumphs, aches with my grieves and gives me patience when I am at my souls end. Even now I often picture He and I sitting side by side looking out over eternity and sharing. I want to do that for eternity. It is my fondest dream to share forever with the people I love. For that I need him. He is someone I love.
Wonderful perspective, mom3 – and I agree, which is why I said in my first comment, “in the sense you describe”. I don’t need my father for much of anything at this point in my life – but I still want him. I think that is a better, more mature relationship.
Old-Timer wrote:wuwei, If you take the geometric analogy of a circle and think about it carefully, I think the Church has come half circle (180 degrees, pointing in the opposite direction of when it started)…
Well, that is a positive, generous, opinion that I respectfully disagree with today.
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What would happen to me today if I told my bishop that God spoke to me and told me to join no church, and that I didn’t need organized religion to get to heaven? That we are all prophets and do not need man or his churches to.find God. That is the great concept that Mormonism was founded on.
Hmm? I wonder….no, I don’t. I’ve been there.
That my friend, is what I mean by “full circle.”
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Question. Do Mormons believe I, or anyone, need the Mormon church and its priesthood and ordinances to get to “heaven?”
If so, full circle…That is what JS was working through when he started this whole path.
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cwald, we are defining the term “full circle” differently. I’m saying we are nowhere near where we were in Joseph’s day – but we are moving back in that direction from the most hardcore opposite direction of a few decades ago. Frankly, I don’t want to get back to the exact same point of the Church’s beginning – and you don’t want that, either. I want to continue to swing back toward it, but I want to stop short of it.
If a better analogy would be the classic pendulum, fine – but the point is that we are hearing more messages now about diversity and becoming and finding our own faith than we did 20-40 years ago. It’s not where I want it to be, but it’s closer than it was when I moved away from home and started my adult life.
I guess it depends whether you consider the status quo of religious dogma of the 1820s to be the starting point or the beginning of the church to be. I was placing the restoration at 180° and saying we were pretty much back to the dogmatic religious structure that js originally rejected. Perhaps not exactly there but eh… We’re using circles to demonstrate two different ideas methinks.
Mom3, i appreciate what you said. I don’t mean to construe it like we will no longer have a place for our father in heaven. I have found the older I get and the less I’ve relied on my parents the more I appreciate and love them. I better understand the difficulty of raising me. Just changing my new son’s diapers these last 2 weeks has really given me a new appreciation for what they did for me. It’s through the experience that I understand their past sacrifices and appreciate them more. But I don’t need them to change those diapers for me. If I did then I wouldn’t experience it and wouldn’t gain the same level of appreciation.
I guess the less I need them the more I appreciate what they did when I did need them. I’d think its the same with god at some point. But as the full circle debate demonstrates in this thread we all have different semantics associated with certain words and what I mean by no longer needing god won’t connect with everyone. And that’s fine. Language can be very limiting. Even one as complex and full of nuanced words as English.
I understood how you meant it, wuwei, and I proposed another way of looking at it – both with the idea that I believe we are heading back toward the original starting point in a circular path and with the idea of a spiral that doubles back as it rises. Analogies work differently for various people, and, getting back to the original question of the post, I really like what you and mom3 have said. That’s the meat of this thread for me – again, that I’ve moved past need and settled on want. That’s where I want my children to be now and in my old age. I don’t want them to need me; I want them to want me. (cue appropriate music)
What I don’t NEED or WANT is that song stuck in my head lol. :crazy:
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