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HP lesson 11 yesterday, Follow The Living Prophet, A discussion on Heber J. Grant’s advice to Marion G. Romney treated as doctrine “…if [the president of the church ] ever tells you to do something, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it… Can somebody tell me how this converts to mean even if you know your are being told to do something wrong you should do it? And also, “this flows down to local leaders as well. You should always do what you are asked to do.”
This was the summary in HP yesterday. I was the only one to attempt to challenge what they were interpreting this to mean but was interrupted quickly and the discussion was kept on track. All I could contribute was that even if we are told to do something wrong it is not going to change the direction of the church.
How does it benefit the individual to do something he knows is wrong? What is power of discernment for? What about free agency used for doing what’s right? What the heck are we teaching and going along with? Every time I go to HP meeting, half way through the embellishment begins. I am really close to opting out completely.
That is wrong, and it is the heart of Lucifer’s plan and opposed to the council in D&C 121 about unrighteousness dominion. (Not doing what someone says simply because of their position and authority.) It isn’t more complicated than that.
Having said that, I have gone along with lots of things from leaders I didn’t view as the best option or council (even some things I thought would end badly, after telling them so) out of respect for their authority. There is a difference between destructive, bad, mediocre, good, great and phenomenal – and reflexively opposing everything with which I don’t agree is just the opposite side of the same coin as the person who blindly does everything anyone demands.
I started to send my question to the HP leader and bishopric but thought maybe not. I even thought it would be a matter of respect and honesty. Any suggestions? Kipper wrote:I started to send my question to the HP leader and bishopric but thought maybe not. I even thought it would be a matter of respect and honesty. Any suggestions?
I’ll study D&C 121, then maybe approach leadership. I just can’t go on like this any more.
Go to my personal blog (thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com) and search the word “sustain” in the search box at the top, left of the page. There are a bunch of posts that might be helpful in framing your approach in a constructive way. The most important thing is to make sure the leaders know you want to support and sustain them, which includes offering a different perspective sometimes or even letting them know when you think something is dangerous. That is part of protecting the church and its membership in a very real way.
I taught this lesson yesterday and only realized after the fact that I hadn’t used a single quote from the manual. We talked extensively about agency as it applies both to us and to church leaders, including the prophet, and about how it is vital that we seek our own personal revelation. No one brought up gay marriage or piercings, so I was feeling pretty proud of myself! 😆 I agree with Ray– sustain is a very different thing than blindly follow. That quote is terrible, and even the way it’s positioned in the manual makes me wonder if it is hearsay. A twinkle-eyed private conversation does not constitute doctrine, and I think it’s sad that it has somehow been embedded in our culture and manuals.
Old-Timer wrote:Go to my personal blog (thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com) and search the word “sustain” in the search box at the top, left of the page. There are a bunch of posts that might be helpful in framing your approach in a constructive way.
The most important thing is to make sure the leaders know you want to support and sustain them, which includes offering a different perspective sometimes or even letting them know when you think something is dangerous. That is part of protecting the church and its membership in a very real way.
Thanks for the reference Ray, I need to understand how to approach in a positive way. At this point all I want is a sabbatical.
NonTraditionalMom wrote:I taught this lesson yesterday and only realized after the fact that I hadn’t used a single quote from the manual. We talked extensively about agency as it applies both to us and to church leaders, including the prophet, and about how it is vital that we seek our own personal revelation. No one brought up gay marriage or piercings, so I was feeling pretty proud of myself!
😆 I agree with Ray– sustain is a very different thing than blindly follow. That quote is terrible, and even the way it’s positioned in the manual makes me wonder if it is hearsay. A twinkle-eyed private conversation does not constitute doctrine, and I think it’s sad that it has somehow been embedded in our culture and manuals.
I wonder why we in our stake don’t emphasize agency or personal revelation. Agency seems to have a negative connotation, only used to decide to do right or wrong. And questioning someone’s interpretation is a way to get shut down quickly, unless I learn how to present it differently maybe.
Three words. Mountain Meadows Massacre
Roy wrote:Three words.
Mountain Meadows Massacre
Willie Handcart Company
Kipper wrote:How does it benefit the individual to do something he knows is wrong? What is power of discernment for? What about free agency used for doing what’s right? What the heck are we teaching and going along with? Every time I go to HP meeting, half way through the embellishment begins. I am really close to opting out completely.
This is interesting, considering that three different bishops and a SP have never asked me to do anything major without the comment that I should go home and pray about it and then let them know within the next couple of days if I would do it, even when I didn’t express any concerns at the time. The one that I decided against, he seemed genuinely interested in my input as to why I didn’t feel it was the right decision for me.
I would tend to agree that “pulling rank” is a clear form of unrighteous dominion; if the request is truly from the Lord, you should have no doubt that He will back you when the person prays about it. I also tend to believe that the fallible men in these positions sometimes act without clear guidance, and use their own judgment, which, while hopefully always benevolent and well thought out, is sometimes still going to be wrong.
http://www.sixteensmallstones.org/debunking-that-quote-about-brigham-youngs-greatest-fear/ While JMax is ostensibly “debunking” the BY quote about his greatest fear, taken in actual context, it’s still the caution, and there are too many members who forget the lessons of the past. When that happens, as you know, we are doomed to repeat them.
February 12th, 1862 (the actual quote):
Quote:“What a pity it would be it we were lead by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are lead by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purpose of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders did they know for themselves by the revelations of Jesus that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves whether their leaders are walking in the path the lord dictates or not. This has been my exhortation continually.”
While I have no doubt that some of our more fascist-leaning leaders (I assume I don’t need to list them out, but the Fourteen Fundamentals certainly comes to mind) would discourage any independent thought as leading to chaos and controverting God’s will, we do still give people the gift of the holy ghost, and they should seek their own personal guidance, not just do what they are told.
I think it comes down to trust and who’s right. If you’re called to be or to do something and tell the authority no, the Spirit tells me otherwise, you’re saying to the person in authority that they’re wrong or got the wrong message. Some people will take that and think about it but others will put a label on you and forever after when you’re name comes up it will be remembered. The other issue is if you have a right to come to a different conclusion about something if it’s not in you area of influence or calling. You might dispute one of your SS teachers being taken for another calling but you’re on thin ice if you say the Church took a wrong turn on same sex marriage. GBSmith: Quote:“You might dispute one of your SS teachers being taken for another calling but you’re on thin ice if you say the Church took a wrong turn on same sex marriage.”
Here’s the rub. First, they DID take a wrong turn on that, and given a couple more decades, they will admit it like they did with blacks & the PH and polygamy (sorta). The problem is you can’t be out in front of the church on social issues. You have to be patient, and by patient I mean you have to ignore things because you might be dead before they catch up.
One of the sources of my own faith crisis is this utter deferral to authority. One other thing — the questions are prescribed. Recently we have been encouraged in a way to ask questions, but this is in a hostile environment. If you ask, for example, if the church is true?…well, that is acceptable. If, however, you ask why JS had relations with Fanny Alger, and why this was not communicated to Emma (and I’ve read it was probably not–good scholarship supports this from the last I read), well, that gets you called into the Bishop’s office and asked if you reading scripture, saying prayers, paying tithing,…etc.
Interesting how that seems to solve every problem,…just read scriptures, say prayers, pay tithing, attend meetings,….etc.
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