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Tom, I agree with your last comment 100%. I just don’t think excommunication should be applied as widely as such a statement could be seen to advocate. That’s all. Tom, What do you think a Peace Testimony would look like for Mormons, if we were to move in that direction? The People of Ammon?
Old-Timer wrote:Tom, I agree with your last comment 100%. I just don’t think excommunication should be applied as widely as such a statement could be seen to advocate. That’s all.
I definitely agree with that.
mercyngrace wrote:Tom,
What do you think a Peace Testimony would look like for Mormons, if we were to move in that direction? The People of Ammon?
The reality is that such a thing evolves in baby steps, beginning to be noticeable perhaps with a few general authorities or stake presidents who find a way to be gently open about their own Peace Testimony, counseling their people to avoid harming and forcing others in all circumstances, including in times of war, to serve the world in peaceful ways rather than bloody ones, and to make friends rather than enemies and orphans.
Ultimately, for Mormons, I think a Peace Testimony would borrow heavily from D&C 98. I think it would involve improving our understanding of reciprocity and the Law of the Harvest including an examination of the result of our haughtiness and faithlessness in 1839 Missouri and 1857 Utah. And I think it would show up weekly in an implicit understanding that when we talk of sharing our testimony, one of the components included is our conviction that there are better ways to solve problems than the way of brute force and trauma. It would also show up in our literature as LDS conscientious objector stories (imagine when the first one of those will show up!).
I see a wave in our literature (Ensign, Friend, New Era) that begins with extolling little children who walk away from a fight, moves to extolling spouses who take a break from a marriage, continues through extolling members who choose Peace Corps service (even at missionary age!!!) and members who choose not to sue or call the police when such could be warranted, then culminating with extolling young men who refuse to take up arms for their governments.
I want to hear more dreams from you all.
As I understand it there are two main reasons for excommunication: 1) to awaken in the sinner the severeness of the sin.
2) to protect the church. (this can include labeling a scholar’s work as not even loosely condoned by the church or ex-ing a criminal {sexual or otherwise} who is getting to much attention for his church membership)
Tom Haws wrote:What do you think a Peace Testimony would look like for Mormons, if we were to move in that direction? The People of Ammon?
The reality is that such a thing evolves in baby steps, beginning to be noticeable perhaps with a few general authorities or stake presidents who find a way to be gently open about their own Peace Testimony, counseling their people to avoid harming and forcing others in all circumstances, including in times of war, to serve the world in peaceful ways rather than bloody ones, and to make friends rather than enemies and orphans.
I am reminded of one of the statements from the COC visitor center video in Nauvoo, “While the Nauvoo period saw our church at perhaps it’s most powerful, it was also a period were we were arguably our least christian selves.”
Tom Haws wrote:The reality is that such a thing evolves in baby steps, beginning to be noticeable perhaps with a few general authorities or stake presidents who find a way to be gently open about their own Peace Testimony, counseling their people to avoid harming and forcing others in all circumstances, including in times of war, to serve the world in peaceful ways rather than bloody ones, and to make friends rather than enemies and orphans.
Ultimately, for Mormons, I think a Peace Testimony would borrow heavily from D&C 98. I think it would involve improving our understanding of reciprocity and the Law of the Harvest including an examination of the result of our haughtiness and faithlessness in 1839 Missouri and 1857 Utah. And I think it would show up weekly in an implicit understanding that when we talk of sharing our testimony, one of the components included is our conviction that there are better ways to solve problems than the way of brute force and trauma. It would also show up in our literature as LDS conscientious objector stories (imagine when the first one of those will show up!).
I see a wave in our literature (Ensign, Friend, New Era) that begins with extolling little children who walk away from a fight, moves to extolling spouses who take a break from a marriage, continues through extolling members who choose Peace Corps service (even at missionary age!!!) and members who choose not to sue or call the police when such could be warranted, then culminating with extolling young men who refuse to take up arms for their governments.
I want to hear more dreams from you all.
Those are beautiful dreams and I believe they will be fulfilled one person at a time. Something I firmly believe and preach whenever I can is that Christ overpowered justice with mercy by willingly suffering injustices for us. When we love others enough to lay down our weapons and to refuse to cast stones then we can effect real change in ourselves and others. We simply have to look at others as brethren – see them as He does – and decide we are willing to carry a cross for them.
As we do this individually beginning in our homes, we would see divorce rates decline sharply. We would see children who felt loved and who had no desire to turn away from parents in rebellion. We would become the people King Benjamin described who had no mind to injure one another and who fed the hungry and clothed the naked without regard for how the beggar came by his circumstance.
Kinda feels like we should cue “It’s a Wonderful World”… I see trees of green, red roses, too
Roy wrote:As I understand it there are two main reasons for excommunication:
1) to awaken in the sinner the severeness of the sin.
2) to protect the church. (this can include labeling a scholar’s work as not even loosely condoned by the church or ex-ing a criminal {sexual or otherwise} who is getting to much attention for his church membership)
I might add — that when there is a high profile crime in general, and a lot of people know about it, excommunication is more likely to be used set a precedent/example/send a message. In those situations, setting the precedent or sending a message can be more important than the individual being excommunicated. Hate to say it, but at one time, that was part of the CHI — that widely known sins may prompt a more severe penalty. So, whether excommunication is the right consequence goes beyond whether the person is repentent. The larger perception has also been deemed important. At one time (I’m not sure if this is the case now), if the sin involved abusing a position of trust — that would also suggest more severe penalties.
Personally, I like the repentence of the sinner as the biggest driver of severity as M&G suggests. It’s consistent with the heart of Christ’s message while on earth and takes an eternal perspective.
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