Explaining a balanced faith perspective to others

[Anonymous]

Tonight, I had a long and frustrating conversation about Mormonism. The lady that I am staying with while student teaching is a really sweet, TBM widow that is following the church in exactness so she can be with her husband in the next life. While I truly respect and admire this woman, I have been frustrated with some political and religious viewpoints that she so adamantly likes to share with others. Usually, I pretend to go along with it (I’m not going to try to change the mind of a sweet old lady that has ancestors going back to the pioneers) but tonight was difficult. The cousin of her late husband has been staying with us. She has been inactive from the church for a number of years due to some differences in doctrinal beliefs. The TBM lady was trying to say that we have to “just have faith” and trust and believe in every thing that the brethren say because what ever comes out of their mouth is the word of God. I tried to offer an opposing viewpoint by saying that there are things that present and past prophets and apostles have said that are not congruent with each other. She asked me for examples and I mistakenly brought up the blood atonement and Adam-God Theory (which she had never heard of). We also discussed blacks and The Priesthood a little bit and she completely defended the Old Testament Cain’s curse story. I mentioned the recent article that the church has come out with about this issue and how it is possible that this policy could have been a mistake. She said that I interpreted it wrong and that if it was not written by the brethren, it cannot be a trusted source (despite the fact that it is on lds.org.)

I tried not to go too deep into the extreme controversial issues, but my intent was to find a middle ground between the different beliefs of the inactive member and the TBM. The TBM tried to make it sound like if we don’t trust the scriptures and the prophets, we shouldn’t be in the church. This is not the right way to try to bring a struggling member back in the church! She said we are being “sifted out” in the last days and the Lord is looking for people that follow everything that the prophets say and don’t try to change the church (or in her words “destroy His church”) I tried to tell the inactive member that within the church there are differences in viewpoints and all are welcome in the church. I brought up the “Come Join With Us” talk from Elder Uchtdorf and the Givens new book “Crucible of Doubt.”

I guess I wrote this partially to vent out my feelings from tonight (so maybe I can get some sleep), but also ask for some support and advice. Tonight the TBM’s comments really made me feel unwelcome in the church. The church is either all right or all wrong in her eyes and if we disagree we shouldn’t consider ourselves true disciples. I feel like a lot of people have this mentality. After I’m finished student teaching, I will return to my home ward which is full of extremist-conservative TBMs. I’m worried about not feeling like I fit in anymore. I also worry that some think that the only reason I think this way is because I’m young and don’t yet understand the gospel. The truth is that I am an open-minded young adult that is honestly seeking for truth (in whatever form I find it in). So, how can you respond to others in these situations? It is one thing for them to believe in this black-and-white mentality for themselves while diligently following the commandments, but it is another thing to preach their all right or all wrong philosophy to others (especially those who are struggling with their testimony).

[Anonymous]

Some people are very secure in the all or nothing approach but you only need to feel comfortable with yourself. Even in a ward that you see as hard core TBM there are going to be kindred spirits and I don’t think you’ll have any trouble recognizing each other. The black and white is at the fringes of what people call the “gospel” so just keep the love God and love your neighbor in the forefront and remember we have as much right to be here as anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Welcome. I hope we can help you and you can help us, so all of us grow a little more than we could alone.

Quote:

So, how can you respond to others in these situations?

In some situations, you learn not to respond – simply because there isn’t any point to it in some cases.

In some situations, you respond quietly, simply and, when possible, by using quotes from Church leaders – like you did.

In some rare cases, you might respond more forcefully (but still calmly) – like I do whenever the former crap about the Priesthood ban justifications are taught as current doctrine.

Either way, their response isn’t in your control, so you sew seeds where you can, understanding some will fall on fertile soil and some will fall on rocky ground – and also realizing you might never know who hears and appreciates but never says anything.

If I can use a classic Biblical analogy a bit more loosely than it generally is applied, let your rain fall on everyone. What each person does with it is up to them.

[Anonymous]

GBSmith wrote:

Some people are very secure in the all or nothing approach but you only need to feel comfortable with yourself. Even in a ward that you see as hard core TBM there are going to be kindred spirits and I don’t think you’ll have any trouble recognizing each other. The black and white is at the fringes of what people call the “gospel” so just keep the love God and love your neighbor in the forefront and remember we have as much right to be here as anyone else.

Very well put, GBSmith.

I’m not all that young anymore, youngadult22, but I espouse your views as well. It is not because I don’t understand the gospel, and I in fact believe I have some “great oaks” of understanding which are firmly planted in the “sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty” (a line from an upcoming talk I’m giving, borrowed of course from Pres. Uchtdorf). I think the thing you need to realize is that you’re not going to convert the old guard orthodox types anymore than they’re going to convert you – a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. In my own experience I’ve found it best to just not engage. That doesn’t mean I don’t bring up Uchtdorf, Givens, Bushman, and others and it doesn’t mean I don’t gently share an alternative view when occasion permits – but I generally don’t get involved in deeper conversations with the more orthodox because it’s pointless. We had a very TBM, very black and white lesson presentation on HPG on Sunday (in the world and not of the world) which was very difficult to sit through – but I did (with some help from my phone). I see your point that it is one thing to believe the black and white point of view and another to preach it, but it is likewise with us – it just happens theirs will get less push back.

It does trouble me that there are those who judge and make others feel unwelcome at church when there is a clear and consistent theme of late that all are welcome. Even some of the hardliners like Elder Oaks are making that point. I don’t believe the church is perfect, and the people are far from perfect. The message of the gospel – the two great commandments in particular – are pretty close to perfect, though. What works for me is to recognize that we are all at different places on our journeys of faith and I can be tolerant of those who believe differently. In fact, I view some of them as having a different religion because it helps me be more tolerant of their beliefs. I do believe that it is up to each of us to work out our own salvation (and perhaps exaltation, if it exists) and I am fine with others who are working on theirs at their own pace. As GBSmith said, you only need to be comfortable with you.

[Anonymous]

I usually take what I’ll describe as the defeatist approach. I think I know how the conversation will unfold and I think I know that any disagreements will only further entrench each person in their original mindset, so I just bite my tongue and avoid the conversation altogether.

I emphasized “think” above because that’s certainly not the only outcome, not by a long shot. I’ve probably missed out on gaining some valuable insights simply because I never bothered to have the conversation. I don’t think on my feet very well so that’s my approach at the moment.

I’m also a live and let live person. If a person wants to hold to a black and white world view that’s okay by me. They can paint me in any light that helps them fit me into their worldview (too young, too old, too lazy, sinner) but that won’t change who I am. To be sure, that’s easier said than done. Sometimes people can be quite explicit in stating that you don’t belong. It still hurts but self confidence can help mitigate some of that.

At times comments from members or leaders of the church make me feel very unwelcome. More often than not the person making the comment isn’t even aware that their comment might make people feel unwelcome. They are simply expressing their views on truth. A TBM has a zeal for truth, even if they manifest it in a different way, and that’s something I can respect.

youngadult22 wrote:

It is one thing for them to believe in this black-and-white mentality for themselves while diligently following the commandments, but it is another thing to preach their all right or all wrong philosophy to others (especially those who are struggling with their testimony).

Yeah, that’s tricky. Sometimes people are completely unaware that their efforts to help people are only driving people further away. Who’s to say? The person struggling with their testimony may need the all right or all wrong approach, they may need something else entirely. The best thing may be to expose them to as many forms of help as possible and let them decide what approach works best for them.

My doofy way of saying that we shouldn’t even look at the all right or all wrong approach as being all wrong… if that made sense.

[Anonymous]

1st try to talk to people alone. They are much more agreeable to understanding than when you talk in a group (even if that group is only 3 people).

I like to make the conversation about what we know and what we don’t. There are many things in the gospel that we do not know. (future of the holy ghost, whether HF is a polygamist, was HE once a man?, where are the 10 tribes?, what is in the book of Joseph?, what about the sealed portion of the BOM?, Will heaven be like OT church, NT church, JS era church, BY era church, or 2014 TSM era church? what happens to unborn babies that die? etc.)

Once we establish that there are unknowns, I just explain that there are things that the person I am talking to may know by revelation and personal experience that I may not know. I have hope in many things in the gospel (faith in the unseen but hoped for) and I am generally comfortable with that. It is ok if I draw my lines of what is known and what is hoped for differently than anyone else.

I have had reasonable success with this approach. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Quote:

To be nobody but myself — in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else — means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting.

-E.E. Cummings, poet (1894-1962)

I came across the above quote this morning, and it struck a cord. It is hard to simply be ourselves. When we come across someone who pushes us to join their cause, their crowd, their beliefs, their whatever; It is even harder to maintain our boundaries.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like you are staying with my mom …..

[Anonymous]

I don’t talk to TBM’s at all about ideas that challenge their beliefs. If I can draw the analogy of the southern states. There are alligators all over the place. If there is a body of water, you have to assume there is an alligator in it for your own safety, and act accordingly. So I believe any contrarion discussion will have TBM beliefs with which to contend. And if I come out, it could harm my relationship and standing in the church, and my future ability to recapitulate. So I never go there.

In terms of not fitting in, I think it’s a foregone conclusion that most beliefs held by unorthodox Mormons don’t fit in. That is the premise of my whole church membership. Be comfortable with that, and take pleasure in “fitting in”, in unorthodox ways. I personally attend a different Ward than the one in which I live, so they can’t give me a calling, but I take assignments. I feel like I fit in when we do the work of the committees on non-doctrinal things. I enjoy the people on non-doctrinal types of issues, talking about parenting, life, etcetera.

I fit in by having similar character values — honestly, being a responsible citizen, avoiding swearing, and I made the personal choice not to drink alcohol long before I ever joined the church. I believe in fidelity in marriage, I guess, and think service is a wonderful thing when approached with passion and authenticity.

There’s enough overlap there for me to attend a Ward party You don’t have to believe in the priesthood ban to help clean up after a Ward social!

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you are talking about one of the men who teaches monthly in my HPG. He is an institute teacher and very committed to walking the line. The interesting thing is that he has had students come up to him with the questionable stuff and it doesn’t sound like he backs down with them. I have disagreed with him “nicely” in class a time or two and he has thought he offended me before, but I’m like a duck and just let what TBM’s think are offenses to me roll of my back.

Unfortunately, you won’t get a person like that to convert or even understand your way of thinking any more than you will want to convert to theirs. Like others have said, sometimes it is better just not to engage with the hard core folks – especially those who are old school and have decades of indoctrination that ANYTHING said or taught that sheds unfavorable light on the church is severely anti-Mormon.

What do I do… a lot of times, I just don’t bother to engage/argue. It’s just not worth it. But I will limit conversations that head toward the black and white mentality. Instead, I try to focus on areas where I have some common ground with the hard core folks. This usually tends toward the idea of “What would Christ do?”. At least from what I have seen, there simply cannot be much argument against the fact that he ministered to all.

Not sure if any of this helps. Hopefully you can endure the living arrangement as you finish your student teaching. It’s good to know that there will soon be another teacher in society with an open mind :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

This is a great thread and good discussion. People in this forum are so compassionate, it’s great to read.

My thoughts on how to have the discussion are these:

I view having these discussions with others as more of an opportunity to learn about others, regardless of the topic at hand. My approach, and what I might share, and what I might take from what others say all depend on what I understand of the other person.

When I can sense the other person’s condition, then I need to assess:

1) Are they orthodox but wanting to hear my views to discuss it? If no…then there is no point on discussing it, but I try to find common ground to reiterate the points I agree with…usually around love and around the good things of the church.

If they are orthodox, but want to discuss it to bible bash…I’m done. Waste of time. They can be right if they want. I don’t care.

If they are orthodox, but want to hear my thoughts…I would do exactly what you did and share the info from LDS.org, and my view that modern revelation is a great thing because as prophets learn more, things become more clear, and prior mistakes can be corrected. Just like revisions to the BOM were done to correct errors of men. And I try to make my point with using Mormon-speak and comfortable examples that I would think someone in their shoes can understand, from their perspective.

2) If they are disbelieving…it is a similar approach. Are they angry? Do they want to hear it, or are they just wanting to vent? Are they gonna bash the church or scriptures or religion no matter what I say?

3) If they are struggling to believe and full of doubt … are they searching or are they just done? Etc etc etc. Most of the time with people in this state, I can share words of empathy, and reassurance that the sky will not fall. I usually want to give them hope it can be survived, and that there are beautiful truths to be found in the process of doubting one’s faith.

So to me…the key is knowing where the other person is…in order to try to make a productive discussion be worthwhile. There is no winning a discussion on religion or faith or beliefs or opinions. There are only poignant thoughts to make to help enhance a person’s perspective.

I find I learn things from others when they are willing to open up. And when they are so certain they are right…I still like to listen to their thought process and how they explain themselves. I just usually don’t respond when I can sense they are digging their heels in.

I recently had this experience with a friend, and enjoyed the discussion back and forth. My friend appreciated my tolerant and open position on a lot of things. Until the temple came up, and when I shared some things I had learned about the history of the temple…my friend locked up and became upset. I found the line that I needed to back up and respect and never cross with them. Although I thought they were open minded to enjoy open talks about many things about the church…I found a part they held too sacred to discuss. And once I learned that, I have never tried to go there again, because I don’t want to hurt their faith or anything that is sacred to them, even if I see it differently than them. I care about them, not the topic we’re discussing.

The open discussion is only helpful when it is safe. It is just the same when I was a missionary talking to non-members…some people are not open to talking about anything, some are completely open and want to hear all, but most people have their menu of items on the buffet that are important to them and is uniquely personal to them and their God and that should always be respected.

Last point I wanted to make to youngadult22….you should not let others make you feel you don’t fit in at church. Fitting in is determined by you, not by others. Others just influence whether you will want to try to fit in nor not, but don’t let fear determine your involvement. There are more people who think like you do in the church than you realize. And you probably share more of the same beliefs as most (love, service, kindness, trials can teach us, etc etc) than the fringe topics that separate you from others (doubts, polygamy, revelation, literalness of the scriptures, etc etc etc).

The more you can learn to accept others and their views, the more you will feel accepted. At least, I feel that way.

[Anonymous]

Where is the “Like” button when you need it. thanks Heber for writing this down. I think I do some of this, but seeing it so clearly written helps me be more conscious about it.

[Anonymous]

Amen — great way of putting it Heber13 and an approach to people that is certainly worthy of striving for.

[Author]

Posts