Exposure / Apologists

[Anonymous]

Reaching out here after knowing about the site for about 5 years and checking it periodically.

I grew up in the church with the family all grandmothers want to end up with when they die. Everyone is married, financially well off, educated, not on drugs (you would think this would not be a rare occurrence but it is) but most importantly all are fully active members of the church.

I have always been a tad bit too humanistic and questioning to ever fit in the mold or feel like I fit in at church. Those feelings were not helped by quite a lot of unrighteous dominion exerted over me by leaders in my youth (another story). But while I never felt at home or welcome I have always tried my best to do what was right by the book and have therefore based a large amount of my life and my identity on Mormonism. (EFY 4 years, Eagle Scout, Quorum Presidencies, BYU-Hawaii (the best one), Honorable Mission, Teaching Adjunct at BYU (not the main gig))

My lack of a testimony grew in exactly the way Elder Bednar says a real one grows. Like a sunrise (or in my case a sunset) that was constantly spurred on by all the normal things, church history, political differences, actually reading the materials, some exercises in common sense etc. Until at last I stopped fitting enough to make it work in any real sense.

At the end of the day, there are two questions that have been rattling around in my mind quite loudly for about 2 1/2 years.

1. How can you live a life that you feel is honorable and true while being an apologist? Apologists have a predefined answer or endpoint that they are searching to find confirmation to. Find a way to make work. Reinterpret, Reinterpret. I just don’t see how I can continue to live a life that would be such a lie. I hope I’m not insulting anyone here, this being a site dedicated to apology, but my exposure is so great that my heart yearns for some other way that would not cause me to “taste of the bitter cup” of leaving for lack of a better expression.

2. How do you deal with the exposure? Especially to those who are married (I am not). It seems that every step you take into the church leaves you more dependent on it and with more and more to lose should you decide to leave (thus less reason to leave). It’s not a hospital for those who are spiritually ill. It’s a government that requires specific adherence to specific ideologies, shared myths, and group actions to remain inside the good graces of the government. The main reason I ask this question is that as I look for someone to share my life with, I want our commitment to be to each other with no higher organization relegating our marriage (maybe some of you older folk can tell me I’m being idealistic and foolish, you could even be right). Therefore, I cannot square the exposure I would have marrying a member of the church. If I left, she would leave me. If we had children, they would be taught to hate me. What is great enough to knowingly bring the danger of this happening into their lives? “For what is a man profited if he gain the whole world, and lose his soul?”

I need to move forward with my life, and the answers to these questions (if there are any to be found) are keeping me from progressing. They cause me to become depressed, dejected and to believe that there is no hope in a life anywhere. Inside the church where my actions are consistent but my beliefs and thoughts are not (and my exposure is total) or outside the church where my beliefs are (more) consistent but my actions alienate me from others (living with Mormon standards is not really that cool)

I don’t want to hate the church, I don’t even particularly want to leave, I just want to have a semblance of stability of compassion and of acceptance. All while following what I perceive as the truth. Is that too much to ask?

[Anonymous]

Hi FITMK,

1) I don’t think of this group as apologist, more of a support group. But given that we openly advocate for people to stay in the church I suppose that might fit the broad definition. I do look at the work apologists do as somewhat akin to what defense lawyers do. It is their job to defend their client and they are actually prohibited from sharing evidence with the prosecution. It isn’t their job to reveal the truth (like Perry Mason), it is their job to provide a sufficient degree of plausible deniability that their client is not found guilty. Is it honorable to be a defense attorney? They provide a needed check against biased and unfair prosecutions. Somewhat similarly, I think that if some apologists come up with a clever argument that such and such prophecy was actually fulfilled if you look at it in a certain way – I believe those apologists see themselves as serving the greater good.

Fearisthemindkiller wrote:

I just don’t see how I can continue to live a life that would be such a lie.

1.5) I would suggest that we all live with some illusions. There does not appear to be a path where we have correct knowledge about everything. Absent such a path of correctness, I believe that what is important is what we do with the path that we have and how we use it to be a help to others along the way. Therefore, people of any church or of no church at all can still have a life that matters and made a positive contribution when all is said and done.

2) I would look for a potential spouse that is a reasonably good match to you. Period. There are no guarantees in life but you can at least start off married life on the same foot and the same page. “Exposure” in this definition is pretty synonymous with vulnerability. As long as you care about other people, you will be vulnerable.

[Anonymous]

Fearisthemindkiller wrote:

1. How can you live a life that you feel is honorable and true while being an apologist?

At past stops along my journey there was a point where I fit the classic definition of LDS apologist. I’d answer that apologists very much see themselves as being honorable and true to their beliefs. In fact I think they’d take pride in feeling that what they are doing is being honorable and true in defense of the wider community’s faith.

I think the key is to consider how we view someone and how they might view themselves. What are the similarities? What are the differences?

At a distance it’s easier for me to see someone else starting with a predetermined conclusion and working their way backwards but when I played the part of apologist I didn’t view it that way. At that stage I legitimately knew what the Truth was. It didn’t really matter whether what I believed was indeed the Truth, the important thing was that I believed that I did. In that mindset starting from a predetermined conclusion and finding ways to make all the pieces fit occurred at a subconscious level.

I thought the exercise was very honorable because I felt I was defending the faith against what I felt were unfair characterizations and because I felt I was helping people.

It comes down to perspectives. I’m sure many an orthodox believer could equally frame the ex-Mormon as someone that is working backwards from a predetermined conclusion, making all the pieces fit according to their narrative.

Fearisthemindkiller wrote:

2. How do you deal with the exposure?

Fearisthemindkiller wrote:

The main reason I ask this question is that as I look for someone to share my life with, I want our commitment to be to each other with no higher organization relegating our marriage (maybe some of you older folk can tell me I’m being idealistic and foolish, you could even be right). Therefore, I cannot square the exposure I would have marrying a member of the church. If I left, she would leave me. If we had children, they would be taught to hate me. What is great enough to knowingly bring the danger of this happening into their lives? “For what is a man profited if he gain the whole world, and lose his soul?”

Disclaimer, I have no way of knowing the stats, but my guess is that those experiences are in some minority, keeping in mind when I say minority I classify anything under 50% as still be considered a minority.

What you mentioned does happen to many people, I don’t want to minimize the trauma that happens when a relationship that didn’t start out as mixed faith ends up there, but what you mentioned isn’t the only outcome.

That said, I’m sure it would be difficult for someone that isn’t a traditional, orthodox believer to marry someone who is and vice versa. Someone who is orthodox may derive a significant part of their identity from church and church culture. The incongruity and differences in identity may just add hardship, but if people are open about it and they enter into a relationship with all the cards on the table maybe it won’t be as big of an issue. I know a few couples at church that entered the relationship already being mixed faith.

And maybe that’s what you’re speaking to, that if you start out on the same page and one or more people in a relationship turn the page, sometimes ties to the beliefs run so deep it can threaten the relationship.

[Anonymous]

I am only going to touch the marriage part of this.

I don’t know how old you are – but even marriages that are same faith have tough struggles. Things they never imagined. In the beginning it’s often easier to chug along together when you feel cut from the same cloth, but everyone grew up in a different home with different parents. Those resentments you worry about could happen between same faith people just as much as split faith people. It all depends on the individuals.

No one wants to hurt in life. Most of us had no inkling a faith transition was even possible. Whether convert or died in wool. I would bet most of us have experienced some other things in marriage we weren’t expecting that have stretched us just as much. Common religion alone doesn’t solve them.

If you are worried about marriage go get some books on it. It might help. I am a follower of the Gottman Institute. Check them out, see if they have insights for you.

FYI – I have a daughter who is running similar questions – the marriage and faith transition ones. You are not alone.

[Anonymous]

Fearisthemindkiller wrote:

The main reason I ask this question is that as I look for someone to share my life with, I want our commitment to be to each other with no higher organization relegating our marriage (maybe some of you older folk can tell me I’m being idealistic and foolish, you could even be right). Therefore, I cannot square the exposure I would have marrying a member of the church. If I left, she would leave me. If we had children, they would be taught to hate me. What is great enough to knowingly bring the danger of this happening into their lives? “For what is a man profited if he gain the whole world, and lose his soul?”

I need to move forward with my life, and the answers to these questions (if there are any to be found) are keeping me from progressing. They cause me to become depressed, dejected and to believe that there is no hope in a life anywhere. Inside the church where my actions are consistent but my beliefs and thoughts are not (and my exposure is total) or outside the church where my beliefs are (more) consistent but my actions alienate me from others (living with Mormon standards is not really that cool)

I have had similar thoughts recently. You’re definitely not alone with these questions. As for marriage, I have decided it is a conversation that will have to happen at some point when I end up in a committed relationship. The possibility of me not staying in the church or going inactive. That way, if she’s not okay with it we can deal with it there instead of it coming up after marriage. I believe marriage should be solely between the people who are actually married to each other–independently of God or the church.

I have found that a surprising number of people in the church have somewhat unorthodox views, even if they don’t usually speak up about it (this is at BYU). There are also a lot of people outside the church who admire the Mormon — 😮 — standards. There are people who can relate to you, it just might take some time to find them.

Also, you don’t necessarily need to find answers to your questions before you can move forward. There are plenty of good things you can go out and do that have nothing to do with the church. I find I get pretty discouraged trying to find answers to all of my existential questions, and I feel much better getting out and doing something like martial arts, hiking, participating in clubs at school, etc.

[Anonymous]

Arrakeen wrote:

There are people who can relate to you, it just might take some time to find them.

Also, you don’t necessarily need to find answers to your questions before you can move forward. There are plenty of good things you can go out and do that have nothing to do with the church. I find I get pretty discouraged trying to find answers to all of my existential questions, and I feel much better getting out and doing something like martial arts, hiking, participating in clubs at school, etc.

I like this quite a lot. Sometimes I can get stuck in my head but focusing on actionable items will get me through. Last thing I want to become is a philosopher. They don’t seem to have any fun and seem to be mildly constipated at all times. I originally read your message as “Just make some time to find them” looks like my subconscious may be looking out for me after all. Literally moving my body will very likely help, literally moving out of Utah may as well.

[Anonymous]

With dating/marriage… and life in general… I think there are many times where we want or need something, and worry we are never going to find it. I got married before I went through my “faith transition”, or whatever you want to call it. My wife has been very loving and supportive, despite how hard it has been on here. Others have spouses who reject and leave them. But at least you have the benefit of knowing what you value and what to look for, member of the Church or not. I think that’s half the battle.

I think that’s true with your faith and self-fulfillment as well. You don’t want to be an apologist? Don’t be one. Personally, I think it’s pretty dumb to be an apologist, and doesn’t get you anywhere. Best to update your views when you get more information.

John Maynard Keynes wrote:

“When my information changes, I change my mind. What do you do?”

The Church isn’t constant, and you don’t have to be either. You don’t need those answers to live your life, or anyone else to dictate to you how to live it. I am reminded of the Parable of the Poisoned Arrow, from Buddhism. A monk goes to the Buddham with what we’d call “theological questions… Is there a life after this one? Do we have a spirit, or is the body all there is? Etc, etc. The Buddha doesn’t answer him. After enough prodding, the Buddha gives him this parable:

Once upon a time, there was a man who got shot with a poisoned arrow. His friends find him wounded and carry him to a surgeon. The wounded man says, “I won’t have this arrow removed until I know who shot me. Was he a noble, a warrior, a priest, a theif? What was his name? His clan? How tall was he? What was the color of his skin? Where was he from?’…” And the man died, and all those things were still unknown to him.

The point is, don’t let those questions keep you from living your life. Do what you feel is right, and if you turn out to be wrong, course correct and keep on living.

[Anonymous]

dande48 wrote:

A monk goes to the Buddham with what we’d call “theological questions… Is there a life after this one? Do we have a spirit, or is the body all there is? Etc, etc. The Buddha doesn’t answer him. After enough prodding, the Buddha gives him this parable:

Once upon a time, there was a man who got shot with a poisoned arrow. His friends find him wounded and carry him to a surgeon. The wounded man says, “I won’t have this arrow removed until I know who shot me. Was he a noble, a warrior, a priest, a theif? What was his name? His clan? How tall was he? What was the color of his skin? Where was he from?’…” And the man died, and all those things were still unknown to him.

The point is, don’t let those questions keep you from living your life. Do what you feel is right, and if you turn out to be wrong, course correct and keep on living.

Last night I recounted for my daughter how I sought revelation to know if I should marry my now wife. We had been dating and everything I knew indicated that we were a good match. I had heard that some people go crazy after years of marriage (In my head I pictured “crazy” as walking away and abandoning the marriage and children). I asked in my prayers, “We seem like a good fit now but what kind of assurances do I have that she will not go off the deep end later?” Then we did an endowment session together in the temple and we were selected as the witness couple. It felt good and right to me and I took that to be an answer to my prayer.

Looking back I could have felt hormones or love or whatever but BELIEVING that I had received revelation on the subject helped me to overcome my paralysis, move forward, and propose. Our life has had its share of ups and downs. Neither one of us are the same person we were when we dated. But we remain committed to each other and the life we have built together. We are a good team.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

[Anonymous]

You’re Right. I know what I must do.

[Anonymous]

I can speak to the marriage/family question as both a daughter who’s father left and a single adult who’s deciding how she feels about the church these days.

On the side of watching a family member leave, yes, it’s hard. It was scary for a while. I blamed my dad. I was mad. But I am now closer to him than I ever was as a teen. He was my seminary teacher. He had been my favorite adult when I was a little kid. I idolized him. But he was very traditional and as I grew up, our similarly stubborn natures caused a lot of friction. I tell my mom regularly that I prefer my not-a-Mormon dad to my Mormon dad. He respects me more. He listens to my opinion. Some of this may have been a natural part of growing up and redefining my relationship with him as an adult. But looking back at seminary teacher dad, the me I was even when I just graduated BYU (and I will never back down from the certainty that Provo is best) would not have gotten along with him as well as I get along with him now. I have friends who were taught one parent was the cause of all the problems and yet they came to be closer to that parent in the end. What I am trying to say here is that kids don’t always do what’s expected. Give them a confident and self-assured example in a good life – however you define that – and you’ve done the best you can.

For the record, my mom and dad met at EFY, she waited for him on his mission, they got married in the temple, and held all the callings. It doesn’t matter where you start. It’s going to change.

That leads into my perspective as a single adult. I honestly think it’s better going through this now. Not to get to the end of the journey – that won’t happen until I die – but to know that it’s something I will struggle with. Ever since my dad left, I wondered if I would ever reach this point. He and I are so similar, it worried me. Turns out, my reasons for asking these questions are totally different than his, but I am still asking. I’ve tried dating in the church. I have found that I actually can’t handle most Mormon Boys. They just aren’t people I care to spend a lot of time with. I’m starting to date outside the church. That has all it’s own issues (which I’ll probably post about at some point), but it’s the route I’m trying right now. I mean, if you aren’t sure you’re sticking around, does a temple sealing even matter? For me, I’ve thought for years that marrying an RM wasn’t an issue for me. Now I’m thinking a sealing isn’t a huge issue either. My best friend has nearly 4 kids who – as of now – being raised in the church. If I really care, I can arrange to have it done when I’m dead.

Wow, that was more words than I meant to dump here. But your post really struck home for me and I wanted to start sharing. Thanks for coming here.

[Author]

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