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kinglamoni wrote:
I want to believe some one has a better answer than this.
There’s a chapter on the Book of Abraham in “Authoring the Old Testament: Genesis – Deuteronomy,” by David Bokovoy.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:anonymous essays
That’s an unfair potshot, Sheldon. The essays are being written by LDS historians associated with the Joseph Smith Papers project as a direct result of the work they have been doing with that project. That has been stated openly by the Church Historian’s office. Those authors have been named in the JSPP and aren’t “secret” or anonymous in any way. The authors aren’t attributed in the explanations, but labeling them “anonymous essays” casts them in a negative light that simply isn’t fair.
OK, maybe “anonymous essay” is a cheap shot. How about this to better explain my feelings. The church put on its official web site an essay without a formal signature at the bottom (contrast the PofF). In 50 years from now (long after we are all gone), I can see the church disavowing the statements, saying they were not official, but just the opinions of some BYU professors. If they really believe what is in the essays, then say so with a signature. A current member of the 15 could disavow them in private conversations, saying he never agreed to them.
In 50 years, if there is new information available, I hope there are new statements written and published. Just saying.
It’s interesting to me how so many members care about what is “official.” I like to feel free in my Mormonism. I sort of wish the official statement of the church was:
Quote:We have no official doctrine …or position on historical events, we invite all to seek a personal relationship with the divine in any manner that feels right to them. We worship together according to our traditions as we seek to overcome the limitations of our mortal understanding and our past. Our primary goal is to lift each other up as we travel together on the road of mortality toward eternal progression.
kinglamoni wrote:Deepthinker wrote:Kinglamoni,
What I’ve finally decided is the only way for me to get around the issues is to redefine how I view revelation. This podcast really helped me and describes what I’m talking about.
I’m still struggling myself with redefining how I have always viewed revelation. It is difficult for me.
Feels like one more mental gymnastics move I am asked to perform.
I know where you’re coming from, and I remember being there. Since then I have tried to remove myself, back up and consider how “my world” was created. Today I see the whole problem in the simplistic framing that I was taught to embrace. If revelation was never assumed to be what we have found that it isn’t – then there wouldn’t be a problem. If from the beginning we talked about revelation in a loose and free way, we would never struggle when we find out it isn’t perfect.
kinglamoni wrote:Deepthinker wrote:Kinglamoni,
What I’ve finally decided is the only way for me to get around the issues is to redefine how I view revelation. This podcast really helped me and describes what I’m talking about.
I’m still struggling myself with redefining how I have always viewed revelation. It is difficult for me.
Feels like one more mental gymnastics move I am asked to perform.
I don’t know, maybe on some level it might be gymnastics. As my faith has transitioned it has become stronger in some ways because I have realized it is very individualized. I think we’re supposed to each develop our own faith and not rely upon that which we have been taught, and my faith (or if you’d rather, testimony) can be different from yours even on the same subject and we can both be right. Using revelation as an example, I think two people sitting next to each other in SS can both have real faith/belief/testimony of revelation yet not believe the same about it at all – my own beliefs about revelation have changed. I think that’s part of the “growing up” or maturing of faith. I have recently realized that I am an adolescent of God. I’m not a child of God any more, although I know many who still are. I am also not an adult of God because that might denote that I am like God and I am not (and I don’t know anyone who is).
Old-Timer wrote:In 50 years, if there is new information available, I hope there are new statements written and published.
Just saying.
Me, too. I don’t want to sound like I’m picking on Bruce R. McConkie today, but
Mormon Doctrineis over 50 years old now and I think many of us here would agree that at least some of what’s in there is really nothing more that his opinion and not doctrine. I still think it’s a good book and a valuable reference on some subjects, but other stuff (like the priesthood ban) it was way off base on. And that has his name on it. I’d like to think that in another 50 years when I’m sitting in the nursing home I can still learn that maybe what I thought now might not have been correct and I hope there’s a GA like Pres. Uchtdorf saying things like “In 250 years people are bound to have made mistakes.” kinglamoni, FWIW, there was a time when I would have considered the BofA to be one of the handful of major issues. Now, I pretty much shrug it off. I think that, for me, the reason I have gotten to that point is that I’ve stopped worrying about how the kitchen operates and now I just look at the food itself. If the BofA has value, I can treat it as an inspired work. To the extent that it doesn’t, I just ignore it. I find Chap 3 very interesting in its symbolism. Beyond that, I’m just not that interested.
I don’t categorize the BofA any different from the BofM(oses). The latter also came by ‘translation’, but there was nothing to translate from.
I understand your concerns, believe me. It’s an elephant in the room. But it’s a sleeping elephant.
kinglamoni wrote:I believe if God has something to reveal he will make it accessible to both the smartest and the not so smartest. I feel that FAIR throws so much information at the topic in an attempt that some of it will stick.
God hasn’t asked anyone to evaluate the details of the papyri, the translation mechanics, or read the FAIR pages, as far as I see it.I think the only real question is did Joseph receive the BoA as a revelation. If so, then the details don’t matter so much. It’s what is in the revelation that matters.
I comes down to belief or unbelief – you can always find arguments to support whichever side you want to be on.
I have ample evidence, to my satisfaction, that Joseph was a prophet. Everything I’ve ever read from him has the ring of truth. The organization he founded is a good organization. Etc. “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
So I’m not going to get hung up on the BoA origins.
The important questions are things like am I loving my kids, am I keeping my covenants, and I working for good in the world. Questions like the BoA origins, Book of Mormon geography, polygamy, Mountain Meadows Massacre, blacks in the priesthood, etc etc – these are all distractions from what matters. Studying these distraction-topics always helps me understand the church in a less naive way, but I also think life is short and these things are a waste of life-minutes, minutes that could be spent helping someone or learning something constructive.
I think the Lord tries our faith, and puts many off-ramps for anyone looking for a reason to leave the church. He goes out of his way to not force anyone to stay. You can always find reasons not to believe if you want, and you can always find reasons to believe. The choice is always yours.
(I’m using “you” here in the sense of “you all” or “all of us,” not directed at the OP)
I am absolutely not saying “don’t ask questions.” Mormonism is about learning, understanding, using your own free will and power of choice, not about mere ignorant faith and unthinking obedience. I’m just saying we should not loose sight of the big picture. And, yes, sometimes we must move forward with faith before we get all the answers we want. The Veil is there for a reason.
shoshin wrote:
I think the Lord tries our faith, and puts many off-ramps for anyone looking for a reason to leave the church. He goes out of his way to not force anyone to stay. You can always find reasons not to believe if you want, and you can always find reasons to believe. The choice is always yours.
I don’t want to derail the topic here, and maybe this needs to be its own – but you really believe God gives us things that could lead people away from the church? I agree with what you say about agency and making our own choices, but I do not believe God gives us “off-ramps” (or tries our faith).
I’ve entertained thinking about the BoA in that context… Mormon was inspired to include the small plates of Nephi because god knew that there would be issues with the 116 pages 1500 years later. It stands to reason that god would know that these issues with the BoA would surface some 120 years or so later. Sure there are differences between those two example, still it allows me to entertain the question. God knew this would happen so what does god want me to learn from all this? There’s lessons that come from the content of the BoA and there’s lessons that come from the delivery of that content IMO. Boa is a pretty big issue for me as well (as stated earlier here on the forum). So I completely know how you feel! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. You all help soften my heart. I fluctuate on BOA. It does hurt JS’s credibility as a translator, but like others have said, I do think there’s plenty of history of this type of “inspired” translation effort – not a literal “this symbol = that word” approach, but one that yields something scriptoral nonetheless. Anyway, one thing I like about the BOA is that it is consistent with later apocryphal stories about Abraham that surfaced, so there seems to be some kind of ancient connection there, either to a common fictionalized source or to some actual historical elements. That’s in the FAIR stuff. I think it’s an interesting book. The bits about astronomy sound like complete bunk to me, but again, bunk with a pseudo-religious / possibly ancient fictionalized bent. hawkgrrrl wrote:The bits about astronomy sound like complete bunk to me, but again, bunk with a pseudo-religious / possibly ancient fictionalized bent.
What you don’t think God sits on a throne nearest to the planet Kolob? I guess that would kind of make him an alien from another planet.:sick: That’s the best emotion icon that looked like a little green alien to me.
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