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shoshin wrote:
You can always find reasons not to believe if you want, and you can always find reasons to believe. The choice is always yours.
I agree with this to a point. I don’t think we can choose the full content of our belief. I don’t feel that I can honestly choose to believe in a flat earth with a firmament dome that holds the stars, sun, moon & rain etc. even if passages in the bible point to it. I must accept things that come as truth to me (round old earth that orbits the sun etc.) and then choose to believe what is available to me from there.
kinglamoni: Yeah, it’s a little bit Ancient Aliens; however, there are some ancient cultures with myths that sound similar, including similar sounding words for these things. I only know that because my 15 YO loves to watch Ancient Aliens so we can mock it. We are better served when we accept the reality of the situation. There was no translation. It was either a fabrication for deceit or a belief that he actually had the ability. Either way it is a fabrication. We should not attempt to make something more than it is to satisfy our need for God to be involved. If the same set of circumstances were in play for any other claim it would be dismissed outright. But then the BofA is dismissed by all but the most ardent Mormons. Kolob, even in the BofA is nothing more than a symbol of Christ and the stars symbolic of the Noble and Great Ones. Chap 3:
Quote:2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all …
Quote:23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good… 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God …
On Own Now wrote:Kolob, even in the BofA is nothing more than a symbol of Christ and the stars symbolic of the Noble and Great Ones.
Its talking both about stars and spirits. Threw out the scriptures you will find dual symbolism in many stories.
It does put the hymn in a new context. If I could hie to Jesus in the twinkling of an eye.
On Own Now wrote:Kolob, even in the BofA is nothing more than a symbol of Christ and the stars symbolic of the Noble and Great Ones.
Chap 3:
Quote:2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all …
Quote:23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good… 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God …
Never thought about it that way. I like it
Cadence wrote:We are better served when we accept the reality of the situation. There was no translation. It was either a fabrication for deceit or a belief that he actually had the ability. Either way it is a fabrication.
I don’t this we can assume this. According the FAIR page I linked to earlier, we don’t know that we have all the documents that Joseph did.Joseph also toward the end of translating the Book of Mormon didn’t even look at the plates, as I remember the story. So by “translation” I think it means the larger sense of “revelation.” I’m fine with that. If Joseph was a true prophet then it doesn’t matter so much about the mechanics of how received scriptures by revelation.
shoshin wrote:Cadence wrote:We are better served when we accept the reality of the situation. There was no translation. It was either a fabrication for deceit or a belief that he actually had the ability. Either way it is a fabrication.
I don’t this we can assume this. According the FAIR page I linked to earlier, we don’t know that we have all the documents that Joseph did.Joseph also toward the end of translating the Book of Mormon didn’t even look at the plates, as I remember the story. So by “translation” I think it means the larger sense of “revelation.” I’m fine with that. If Joseph was a true prophet then it doesn’t matter so much about the mechanics of how received scriptures by revelation.
Shoshin, not everyone sees it the same way. Many of us have given up on apologists – I am among those. I don’t read them for the most part and many here have difficulty with some of the “stretching” that needs to be done to believe some of their explanations. I do believe that Joseph Smith had a profound spiritual experience in the sacred grove and as such was a prophet. Beyond that, I’m not sure of much else. He may have received revelations or he may not have, he may have translated the BoM or he may not have. I’m not sure most of his “revelation” was anything more than his own thoughts and feelings. I think he could have translated the BoM by the “gift and power of God” but I also think he could have made it up. I think it’s far more likely he made up the BoA, although as I said earlier I am open to the idea that it may have been inspired. So, I agree that we can’t necessarily assume what Cadence offered, but we also can’t make any assumptions about what you offer.
DarkJedi, The apologists aren’t going to prove things that must ultimately be a matter of faith, that’s for sure. I think FAIR is just making sure the church doesn’t loose by forfeit, because the other team just failed to make an appearance.
Some anti-Mormon says the Nephites couldn’t have had steel. Well, actually, says FAIR, here are some references to steelmaking in the ancient middle east. Stuff like that. But it sounds like you are already familiar with what the apologists say.
The Book of Mormon must also ultimately be taken on faith. However, if you are interested, check out Hugh Nibley’s lectures on the Book of Mormon. Tons of stuff there, densely packed info, that is hard to easily dismiss. Although not proof of anything.
I personally don’t make an attempt see the BoA as inspired to to reconcile it with anything Egyptian. I think of it as something of an exercise in Mormon cosmology and as scripture containing some interesting and helpful ideas. I’ve found the idea that “men are, that they might have joy” to be very influential in my life when I was having a crisis of faith and no longer felt that I had divine purpose. If I didn’t live for God, then what was the purpose of life? I found the idea that the purpose of my life it to be happy to be very helpful.
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