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Hi, I just started reading articles here and feel like there is so much *good* here. I’ve been working through serious doubts for a long time, and my wife has recently joined me. I think we’re both worried about whether to stay or not mostly because we want our 3 year-old daughter to have the experiences we had with strong Church friendships, but we are terrified of the culture that we have had to resist, which is sometimes quite damaging to ambitious women and the men that support them. My concerns are far-ranging, including:
– Anthropomorphic God (Sci-Fi frankly has come up with better versions that are way more charitable and kind)
– Dubious nature of the Church’s origins
– Seriously messed-up scriptures and stories
– Nature of human biases and heuristics (we’re really easy to dupe)
– General Authorities (and sometimes apostles) who say things they ought not to say
– The politically divisive nature of the Church
– A fear, shame, and anxiety-inducing culture
Just to name a few.
I have felt “that warm/burning” feeling, but you know what? Turns out I feel it in the lab, and when I study evolution/science, and when I read articles by atheists, and when I see amazing art, and when I spend time with my wife… So I’m less convinced that I’m always feeling the Holy Ghost, since I’m not *that* righteous.
I do feel like my experiences in the Church have largely been uplifting, despite some grievances. When I served on a Bishopric, I felt we were inspired to make certain choices many times. But I occasionally disagree with my leaders, politically and doctrinally and that has gotten me in trouble. In fact, despite my adherence to the Church’s standards, I am currently in danger of being released from my calling and having my temple recommend taken away because I was not the biggest fan of a talk recently given by a General Authority.
Anyway, hi! Hope to become well acquainted here!
science_saint wrote:we are terrified of the culture that we have had to resist
Welcome aboard! I’ve only been here a couple of weeks and I’m very impressed. This is a good place to hear from people who either (a) basically believe in the Church or (b) are willing to give it the benefit of the doubt for now, but have many of the same concerns that you have. Our leaders always want to make it seem like the Church stays the same, but actually the culture is changing because of a new generation.
Tom
science_saint wrote:
I have felt “that warm/burning” feeling, but you know what? Turns out I feel it in the lab, and when I study evolution/science, and when I read articles by atheists, and when I see amazing art, and when I spend time with my wife… So I’m less convinced that I’m always feeling the Holy Ghost, since I’m not *that* righteous.!
Welcome to our “ward”. I think you will find people who share the same concerns. I agree, I feel “the Spirit” when I listen to P!nk and Wicked and watching touching movies.
Hope to hear more from you.
I believe science has done more for the salvation of man than any one individual. Welcome!!! science_saint wrote:– Dubious nature of the Church’s origins
That’s what got me started down my path.
science_saint wrote:– General Authorities (and sometimes apostles) who say things they ought not to say
What helps me is to remind myself that these are imperfect men doing the best that they can. IMO the
realproblem is that general membership often doesn’t view it that way. From what I’ve observed the person that voices their concerns gets labeled a wolf in sheep’s clothing, an apostate, a “so-called member,” etc. I’ve seen simple disagreements blown out of proportion until they became attacks on the church or attacks on god’s standards, it becomes all or nothing proposition for many people. Unfortunately I see that same mindset translate into judgmental attitudes and intolerance. It really places limits on the love that members of the church should be exhibiting towards all people. science_saint wrote:– A fear, shame, and anxiety-inducing culture
I agree. In the past I had difficulty loving myself, loving who I was. One of the most liberating things in my life was letting go of all the guilt. I couldn’t have done that without a faith crisis.
I don’t have a ton of time right now but I do want to welcome you. I certainly relate to some of your thoughts and feelings, and I look forward to mutual sharing. Please know you are among like minded friends here. General Conference October 2010 – was the end for me. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
You are not alone. Even though I stay and love the people and many teachings. It’s not the origins I have a problem with. Those are 1000 times less if a concern to me then the others you mentioned which I have witnessed and seen in action to myself and others. It’s incredibly friendly and loving when you are with the program and think the same way. It gets more and more harmful as you act differently or think about multiple variables instead instead of the one true variable held or taught. As an adult I rarely express different thoughts out loud because growing up I had various thoughts I expressed out loud that brought wrath and anger for asking and seeking questions like expressing different possibilities for things instead of staying inside the box. It’s definitely bit unique to Mormonism. It’s most evident in early tribal history which in which anything new and different was viewed as a threat. The oldest tribal mentality living today exist in the Middle East. I see a string collation between that and some of our behavior in various cultures including ours.
It was by nature designed to protect the tribe within. But by it’s very nature and design brings great harm to “outsiders” and those different from inside the “tribe”.
I have spent a lot if time studying and looking at study results with various programs not exclusive to LDS but just I’m general or similar to because of my past experiences inside. I want to understand and the human nature and actions and the scriptures and GC have brought little comfort or understanding to my experiences. So I embarked on long term scientific studies and they have helped me understand and replicate things very well. It brought me more understanding and comfort in a few years then a life time of scriptures and GC. That doesn’t mean they are not without there place. But I think they are near useless oversimplification answers to complex human behavior.
In context they are thoughts of people 1000s of years ago that didn’t have the tools of data or research. They did the best they could but we can do way better now and we should, we have an obligation to.
Anyways I look forward to hearing from you and what kind of studying or and research you do.
You appear to share all my observation and concerns, it’s shared by many sociologist and therapist I encountered(not the church but various effects of teachings and programs in general some of which the church uses).
There is now (unlike before recently) huge data and empirical evidence of the good and the bad associated with certain teachings and programs. It’s out there for study. Now that’s its available we should and it is out obligation to take it seriously and adjust accordingly and reevaluate some of them. Not just in the church but in the nations and businesses and military in general. I try to keep the church sexier are from this. It’s not unique to us, but out duty and obligation to use and discontinue and reevaluate any program causing help or harm with this new empirical evidence and use new teachings or ways so they become more positive then negative. We inherited many good and bad teachings and ways of teaching. The military too has had to adjust in the last decades to reflect the research. We should to.
Glad to have you aboard. Quote:we are terrified of the culture that we have had to resist, which is sometimes quite damaging to ambitious women and the men that support them
FWIW, my own experience has been that as a female executive (20+ years at it), I find that I am respected and listened to. I’m not generally given time-consuming callings because I have always traveled a lot for work. What I did find, though, was that when we lived in lower educated wards, I simply couldn’t relate to any of the women. So anti-intellectualism has been harder (for me) than whether women had ambitions outside the home or not. It was more about whether they picked up a book and actually had interesting thoughts.
One more thought for you – I just finished reading Letters to a Young Mormon by Adam Miller. It’s a collection of essays. The one on Faith was really very good and thought-provoking about the value of staying. The author has what is clearly a very unorthodox perspective, but one that really resonated for me.
Welcome. We need scientists to stay in the church and help educate our membership against the tide of stupidity that is flooding at them from secular sources (and older / former church leader quotes). Welcome. Glad to have you here. The world would be a better place if we used the scientific method more often. I think there’s lots of room in the church for science and scientists but unfortunately not everyone sees science as a search for truth. Henry Eyring (Pres Eyring’s father) was a good example of a good man and good scientist seeking truth.
Welcome to StayLDS, s_s! 
I am sure you will find many people here you can relate to. I think it’s cool that you’re into science. If religion and science can work together rather than trying to prove each other wrong, then we would actually get somewhere. Well, if it’s even possible for them to reconcile.
science_saint wrote:we want our 3 year-old daughter to have the experiences we had with strong Church friendships, but we are terrified of the culture that we have had to resist, which is sometimes quite damaging to ambitious women and the men that support them.
I don’t disagree with your sentiments. I believe that the LDS church is better than most at engaging the YM but I also believe that some of this comes at the expense of the YW. My own efforts are to expose my children to multiple perspectives and multiple ways of doing things. I hope that they will be able to grow and develop into their unique selves and not apolagize for it.
I suppose more than anything we are trying to counteract shaming with love and acceptance.
Welcome to the group.
P.S. Cadence wrote something the other day that was pretty profound – “When science fails you, the solution is more science not less.”
One more thing: It is perfectly possible to raise strong, independent daughters in the LDS Church. It’s harder in some wards and branches than others, but it’s possible.
I know. I’ve done it and am doing it.
It is nice that you and your wife are on the same page. It makes it much easier. There are a lot of smart people here and it will be great to hear more from you. I agree with many of your issues, they are very typical. I am interested in know what GA’s talk has gotten you in trouble with your leaders. There have been so many lately that have rattled many of us free thinkers. Again welcome.
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