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I think you guys will like the blog post I made today. http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/faith-as-a-choice/ When the “faith is a choice” things started going around LDS circles a few years ago, I believe started by Terryl Givens, it made me crazy mad. Somewhere along the line I got converted to the idea.
Marcus Borg on a different definition of faith.
Quote:Marcus Borg argues that faith as belief is a concept that’s been hijacked by the modern church (speaking of Christianity in general) when faith historically has been more of a multi-faceted concept, with emphasis on faith as faithfulness.
“Faith as fidelitas. The English word is ‘fidelity.’ Faith as fidelitas means faith as ‘faithfulness’ to God. Faith as fidelity means loyalty, allegiance, the commitment of the self at its deepest level, the commitment of the ‘heart.’ Faith as fidelitas does not mean faithfulness to statements about God, whether biblical, credal, or doctrinal. Rather, it means faithfulness to the God to whom the bible and creeds and doctrines point. The opposite of faith as faithfulness is not doubt or disbelief, but rather infidelity or unfaithfulness. We use this language when a man has been ‘unfaithful’ to his wife or a woman has engaged in infidelity. They have broken their covenant relationship and been disloyal to one another.
And Stephen Robinson.
Quote:Stephen Robinson in Following Christ said, “In the Old Testament, the words for faith, faithful, and faithfulness all come from the Hebrew ‘aman (to be firm or reliable) and imply primarily qualities of loyalty and determination rather than qualities of loyalty and determination rather than qualities of belief…Thus being faithful does not have as much to do with our belief or even our activity in the Church as it does with whether we can be trusted to do our duty in the earthly kingdom of God…Unfortunately, due to denominational influence in modern English, the word faith has come to be associated primarily with what we believe.”
With this definition, we can understand why faith can be a choice. btw, I still don’t believe belief is a choice. Though I think Terryl Givens includes belief when he talks about faith as a choice, but I think he uses the same definition of “believe” as I am using as with faith.
It always drove me crazy when people I knew damn well didn’t “believe” called themselves “believers”. i think it’s helpful to lay out the definition first so those not familiar with the concepts can understand.
I myself am a proponent of limited choice theory. By this I mean that we have our choices severely limited by a host of factors (including but not limited to the culture, nation, and religion of our birth as well as such individual factors as family upbringing, birth order, personality type, inclinations, and mental capacity). And so my friend the glass is partly full and partly empty. I make a choice – say in whom to marry. How much of that choice is mine and how much is influenced/programmed by prior factors outside of my control? And it gets even harder to disentangle the control that others exercise in their life choices. If I were able to transport my pure essence into the body of someone else and have their brain patterns and their formative experiences – how can I know that I would not be making exactly the same sort of choices that they are now making?
Quote:I believe faith as fidelity is not just faithfulness to God but also assumes faithfulness to the teachings and standards of the religion you choose.
So in this sense I did not choose this religion. I was born into it. I then was shepherded into making increasingly greater promises of loyalty and commitment.
And yet, I honor and respect those good things and experiences that have been afforded me. As far as life experiences go, my childhood was full of security and love. My church – flaws and all – does some things really well. To the degree that I am offered a choice – if my percentage of choice is 15% or 50% – I hope to choose love and honor and respect. I try. I sometimes succeed and sometimes fail. But then I get up again dust myself off and try to move that needle of self determination in the direction of love, honor, and respect. In the end that is all that I can do.
churchistrue – Thanks for the post. It was good Sunday reading and reminds me that my quick once-through reading of Crucible of Doubt probably wasn’t enough. Roy wrote:I myself am a proponent of limited choice theory. By this I mean that we have our choices severely limited by a host of factors (including but not limited to the culture, nation, and religion of our birth as well as such individual factors as family upbringing, birth order, personality type, inclinations, and mental capacity). And so my friend the glass is partly full and partly empty. I make a choice – say in whom to marry. How much of that choice is mine and how much is influenced/programmed by prior factors outside of my control?
And it gets even harder to disentangle the control that others exercise in their life choices. If I were able to transport my pure essence into the body of someone else and have their brain patterns and their formative experiences – how can I know that I would not be making exactly the same sort of choices that they are now making?
Quote:I believe faith as fidelity is not just faithfulness to God but also assumes faithfulness to the teachings and standards of the religion you choose.
So in this sense I did not choose this religion. I was born into it. I then was shepherded into making increasingly greater promises of loyalty and commitment.
And yet, I honor and respect those good things and experiences that have been afforded me. As far as life experiences go, my childhood was full of security and love. My church – flaws and all – does some things really well. To the degree that I am offered a choice – if my percentage of choice is 15% or 50% – I hope to choose love and honor and respect. I try. I sometimes succeed and sometimes fail. But then I get up again dust myself off and try to move that needle of self determination in the direction of love, honor, and respect. In the end that is all that I can do.
I’m not smart enough to jump in the self determination discussion.
In the end, I don’t know how much choice I really have – but I know I want to be able to choose and to feel like I can choose. To me, the best part of our theology is that there is someone who knows how much choice I really had and won’t hold it against me if I couldn’t choose as much as I thought I could or wanted to do. Mercy and grace mean a lot to me when it comes to this topic.
I don’t view the phrase “faith is a choice” as a call to make the decision to believe in something we don’t currently believe in, I view it as saying that whateverwe end up believing, we ended up believing because we chose to do so. I haven’t read the book and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn Express so my take on things may be entirely out of context. I just think that sometimes people incorrectly use the phrase as a call to convince others to believe as they believe. Do we actually have a choice? I honestly can’t say. An extreme example, do people with dementia have a choice or are they only acting in ways that are limited by their mental condition? Could we describe everyone’s situation as a set of conditions within which they are acting? See Roy’s post for clarification.
nibbler wrote:I don’t view the phrase “faith is a choice” as a call to make the decision to believe in something we don’t currently believe in, I view it as saying that
whateverwe end up believing, we ended up believing because we chose to do so. I haven’t read the book and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn Express so my take on things may be entirely out of context. I just think that sometimes people incorrectly use the phrase as a call to convince others to believe as they believe. Do we actually have a choice? I honestly can’t say. An extreme example, do people with dementia have a choice or are they only acting in ways that are limited by their mental condition? Could we describe everyone’s situation as a set of conditions within which they are acting? See Roy’s post for clarification.
I have a hard time thinking that one can choose to change one’s beliefs, unless it’s in a very indirect way, such as to intentionally manipulate the information you come in contact with over a long period of time. i don’t think that’s what Givens is talking about.
People’s beliefs change all the time. Life does that to people. We even have core statements saying our beliefs ought to change/evolve/progress/etc. over time. Perhaps more than any other religion, the idea of “further light and knowledge” changing beliefs is central to our theology.
For me, never-changing belief is a good definition of damnation.
Old-Timer wrote:People’s beliefs change all the time. Life does that to people.
We even have core statements saying our beliefs ought to change/evolve/progress/etc. over time. Perhaps more than any other religion, the idea of “further light and knowledge” changing beliefs is central to our theology.
For me, never-changing belief is a good definition of damnation.
Right. But do you have conscious ability to change/choose your belief?
churchistrue wrote:Right. But do you have conscious ability to change/choose your belief?
Speaking personally, being exposed to a new environment or new information will often drive change in my beliefs. If I consciously seek out new information am I consciously looking to change my beliefs?If I am conscious about my sources for information am I conscious about what direction my beliefs are taking. Argh, this is getting too meta. What drives my choice in information sources.
churchistrue wrote:I have a hard time thinking that one can choose to change one’s beliefs, unless it’s in a very indirect way, such as to intentionally manipulate the information you come in contact with over a long period of time. i don’t think that’s what Givens is talking about.
You mean like the missionary arm of the church.
:angel: Admittedly I haven’t read the book. My comment was directed at how I’ve often heard the phrase “faith is a choice” used.
churchistrue wrote:Right. But do you have conscious ability to change/choose your belief?
How would life be different if you did? if you didn’t?
nibbler wrote:How would life be different if you did? if you didn’t?
Good questions. I like the question “would you change your belief if you could?” I’ll answer that.
If I felt I could consciously choose my belief I’m pretty sure I would have chosen to believe in literal Mormonism when I was going through all the cognitive dissonance that came with losing my literal belief. A phase that lasted for almost ten years, that I’ve been coming out of for the last couple years. Losing my belief caused a ton of pain.
Right now, where I’m at? I’d have to think about that. I think life would be easier for me if I could at least believe a few more aspects about LDS chuch origins. But I’m pretty comfortable in my skin right now. So maybe not.
I don’t know if everyone can, but I know I have – and I know lots of others who have. Maybe to some is given the gift to change – and to some that gift is not given.
Churchistrue, you may be conflating some different ideas. Givens talks about there being some room for faith as a choice. We do not have all the information. There are gaps in our data points. I believe what he is saying is that we can give people and history the benefit of the doubt and not close the book of final judgment. In regards to God and the meaning of the universe – we can strive to keep possibilities open. In this regard living in uncertainty is the faithful choice. It is faith to continue to wrestle with truth and meaning rather than firmly deciding one way or another.
Faith as fidelity/loyalty is very different. Many people in North Korea are fiercely loyal to their leader. One could say that they are faithful in that sense. Is that the choice that we are making when we say that faith is a choice? To support and defend your nation/culture/religion/people/tribe in opposition to all others? What about when people immigrate to the USA or convert to Mormonism? Are they being faithless/unfaithful/committing infidelity against their former country of origin or religious belief system? This certainly is a valid use of the word faith – but it is not what I believe is being intended when someone generally says that “faith is a choice.”
I updated this topic with a post on Belief as a Choice. Interested to hear feedback on this. http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/belief-as-choice/ churchistrue wrote:I updated this topic with a post on Belief as a Choice. Interested to hear feedback on this.
http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/belief-as-choice/ I really like the post. Good food for thought. I am totally with you until you start quoting general authorities.
I believe that this is because in a church setting the words “belief” and “faith” are extremely hard to pin down what is meant in a given context.
Givens talks about there being enough room for choice. I agree. On the concepts of whether or not there is a God, on the concepts of what is the point or purpose of life, on the concept of determining to live a life full of goodness (as best as I can understand it) even though I have no guarantee that such a life will be rewarded – On those things there is both evidence for and against and I can will myself to somewhat tip the scale in favor of belief and hope in the more meaningful and beautiful outcome. This I believe is the realm of faith.
Unfortunately, The quotes from the general authorities quickly become confusing in this context. They are not sticking to a single definition of belief or being clear in what form of belief they mean. In some contexts they may simply mean “loyalty” and to stick to the heritage and religion of the group. You yourself show some of the same confusion in trying to reconcile the GA statements with the original context of belief and the limitations of choice in what we believe. It can be difficult if one is talking about apples and the other is talking about oranges but they are both using the word “fruit.”
Still, as I said, this was a very though provoking post.
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