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A couple of interesting stories this week that I am curious to hear others thoughts about: 1)Being in the calling I am we hear from missionaries who return to our stake. This morning a missionary shared how she had doubts about the BofM on her mission and prayed and prayed and finally felt the impression “You know its true, so quit asking about it.” It was a replica of a similar missionary experience for myself. Doubt and questions, prayers and doubts, no answers except the standard it must be true so I should quit asking. As I was reflection on her experience, I felt a level of sympathy for her because I knew what she experienced, and I also felt a level of worry for her, because I wonder if she will have to go through what I have gone through in navigating those doubts. Not saying she will, perhaps that experience was enough for her, ultimately for me it wasn’t.
If you would have asked me after my mission if I knew everything was true I would have said yes, but I don’t know many people who feel like they could have come to a different conclusion on your mission. What else are you going to say and believe when family, community, religious and moral implications hang in the balance? This is not a judgement of her, only of myself, but not really of myself, because how could you navigate a faith crisis in your mission never having been given tools to manage it and being told that if you feel doubts it is the devil trying to get you? Anyway…just some thoughts about this.
2) A friend of a friend in another stake has been a middle-way Mormon for a number of years. His spouse a TBM. Over the last six months she made a concerted effort to find answers from God, read her scriptures diligently morning and night, prayed every day but no answers. Then she read Sacred Loneliness and is calling it quits. Her NOM husband would like to continue going to church, but is supporting his wife as she works through this transition.
I guess I am only sharing because there are people out there struggling, or who might struggle and need (or will need) love and support. It’s interesting to see through the looking glass and notice things in a different perspective. A few years ago I would have taken the return missionaries story as faith promoting, but now I see the seeds of faith crisis. They may never sprout, but I see them…
I agree with you, SBRed, that I see seeds of a FC. Some seeds don’t grow and I guess that’s good from a certain point of view. I have gained more gratitude for my doubts and questions and I believe my faith – although different – is stronger in some ways than before. My experiences as a missionary are very similar to those you describe, except my BoM experience was actually prior to my mission and was more of an “of course it’s true” feeling. Likewise, immediately post mission I would have said I knew it was all true – even though deep down I didn’t know. I think we don’t need to precipitate any crises of faith, but we can be a hand to hold when and if it happens. Quote:A friend of a friend in another stake has been a middle-way Mormon for a number of years. His spouse a TBM. Over the last six months she made a concerted effort to find answers from God, read her scriptures diligently morning and night, prayed every day but no answers. Then she read Sacred Loneliness and is calling it quits. Her NOM husband would like to continue going to church, but is supporting his wife as she works through this transition.
This is not the first time I have heard of an experience like this, it seems to be happening more and more. It’s happened to cousins and close friends of ours.
I still wish the church leadership would write a letter, an ensign talk, or have a leadership training and acknowledge this process and give council and support to leaders and members on it. There is so much they could do and I find the silence heartbreaking.
I had an experience as an investigator when I held out on baptism for a very long time, because I didnt’ get an answer when I prayed. At one point, after I had all the discussions my friends in the church grew frustrated. One person kind of chastised me about it, and then left the room, pointing at me, and saying “You KNOW it’s true”….I said, honestly “No I don’t!” — but at that point he’d left the room… I wonder how much of these impressions “You know it’s true, so stop asking about it” are simply people having random streams of consciousness based on things they heard at church? And in hearing these thoughts, make a choice to accept them?
SilentDawning wrote:I wonder how much of these impressions “You know it’s true, so stop asking about it” are simply people having random streams of consciousness based on things they heard at church? And in hearing these thoughts, make a choice to accept them?
I think, looking back on my own experience, it’s not stream of consciousness, but a deeply sub-consciouss desire to not rock the boat because if you really admitted to other you don’t know that would be difficult.
Looking back, I did have spiritual “confirmation” to join, but only after repeated attempts at getting an answer, turning missionaries away, and and once, fasting for 3 solid days. Took well over a year. Looking back, I WANTED it to be true because the church I grew up in was not well organized, doctrine not clear, and the Mormon experience seemed so well organized, unique, and also had good people in it. Plus my friend has huge influence over my thinking at the time. He ended up in a sales career, so I understand part of his passion for convincing me to join.
I think part of my testimony was borne of wanting it to be true.
Most often, “testimonies” are built first and foremost on hope – which is then manifested in faith (action based on hope). Thus, most testimonies begin from a desire to have something be true. As to the returned missionary, I am careful not to read too much into answers like that and to value them over devaluing them. First, they work for those who feel them; second, some people simply have a more believing orientation; third, the Gospel as taught in the LDS Church really does “ring true” for a lot of people. Thus, her answer might be 100% correct for her – exactly like an investigator who just “gets it” immediately upon being taught the missionary discussions.
In other words, that missionary might be the type of person who would be a “golden investigator” if she hadn’t been born in the Church. She might have been looking for some kind of obvious converting experience when she didn’t need that type of experience for it to feel right, good and true to her. She also might be more of a thinker than a feeler – and that sort of answer might be just how she “gets” things. I know people like that – lots of them, and I’m not going to invalidate or reject their own way of feeling these things.
Frankly, my own experience is more like hers than others who have a powerful conversion experience. All other issues aside, the core of Mormon theology simply has always feel good to me – and that still is true after decades of studying just about every other worldview quite deeply. To me, even though I knew I saw things differently than everyone else around me at a very young age, my own view of Mormon theology made sense intuitively – so, in a way, I could say what she said, even if I frame it a little differently now than I would have at her age.
Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply any thing other than how my own filter has changed. What she felt and experienced may work perfectly for her…but I can’t help see things differently now. That’s all. I hope whatever she (or anyone else for that matter) decides to do will make them happy.
🙂 I get what you’re saying, Ray, and I agree – everyone is different. I’ll just point out that I was a golden convert (I had read A Marvelous Work and a Wonder and called the missionaries and asked to be baptized). Even for people who don’t need a “profound spiritual experience” the wheels can come off. Looking back over the trail from then to now, I still don’t need that profound experience – but now it’s because I think it’s not a reality for me and many others. For many parts of the the theology I thought I had had the experience – I still feel what I think is the Spirit when I read the Joseph Smith story, which is partly why I believe him. Nevertheless, the “if/then” (if JS was a prophet then…) argument doesn’t work for me – but you are absolutely correct that it may work for SBRed’s RM friend. On the other hand, many a person here and elsewhere will point to their mission as the place where the seed of discontent was planted – likely because of the intense study time. Also, the phenomenon of RMs becoming inactive within a fairly short time following the mission is a concern to the church, and SBRed’s observation is valid from that perspective. I’m sure that not everyone that testifies about God helping them find their car keys is destined for a faith crisis – but I have stated here before that I think those people are in great danger. I see nothing wrong with SBRed’s concern for his neighbor.
My FC was not so much based on the LDS church as it was on a view of God directly interviening on behalf of his children to bless/warn them etc. This view is not exclusive to the LDS church but it is definately reinforced by it. Now that I participate in other Christian churches and listen to Christian music on the radio, I percieve that there is much more dialogue going on in these non-lds circles about the reality of hard times, disapointment, and sorrow. In our Church, the emphasis seems to be on overcoming through faith, enduring to the end, holding fast to the iron rod, etc. with the sometimes implied assumption that if you are not happy – perhaps you are not doing it right. DarkJedi wrote:I’m sure that not everyone that testifies about God helping them find their car keys is destined for a faith crisis – but I have stated here before that I think those people are in great danger.
When it came to rebuilding my assumptive reality, I remember consiously thinking that my new assumptions must be able to stand the test of life experience. This meant that I could not have an expectation for divine intervention. If God blesses me, all the better – but I don’t know really what to do with such blessings. When does God bless me? is there a pattern? Is it based on my actions? If I pray for protection in the morning of tithe until it hurts – will that assure me of blessings when I need them? I simply cannot go down that road because for me that leads to heartache. Instead I built a framework where God loves and accepts me completely but does not alter the events of the world or my life. My belief in Him and His love for me is unprovable and is thus resistant to damage by future life experiences.
In another story from the week: I have a friend who I (wrongly) assumed to be much more Orthodox (though he is one of the kindest most amazing people I know and before this conversation I would have hoped the church to be full of Orthodox believers like him) than I thought. He was in a HPG where Richard Bushman was the HPGL. He was telling me about some of his stories from his time there and that the HPG questioned everything. He could not get away with teaching the standard church doctrines with the standard lines without getting pummeled a bit. As he was telling me these stories about teaching in that class it sounded heavenly, like a StayLDS ward. It was also a group where everyone was very open about their own personal, spiritual, and familial challenges. It sounded like my kind of place.
Even though he liked it I think it was challenging for him and I think he is still dealing with it. He expressed some different concerns/doubts to me which we discussed. He asked me if I had read RSR which I acknowledged and he said he doesn’t want to read it because he is worried what that might mean for his faith. I told him he doesn’t have to, that he can do whatever feels is best for him. I did suggest that he read Crucible of Doubt, think that was a good suggestion?
Something else he said that I have thought about a lot was that he didn’t really want to read challenging things because it seems like it would be exhausting from a faith perspective, always to wonder and never be sure about anything. I acknowledged that is probably the case for most people as it is for me, however it is in my nature to wonder and explore and that it is not for everybody.
I saw pain in my friends eyes, and I wasn’t sure what to do or say. I see him standing at a ledge, unsure if he wants to make the jump because I think he understands that it will be difficult. He might retreat back to where its comfortable. This could spin off in a 1000 different directions, I don’t know what he will do. I expressed my “testimony” that we are all on our own journey and that if he ever wants or needs to talk about anything I am here.
Quote:He was in a HPG where Richard Bushman was the HPGL. He was telling me about some of his stories from his time there and that the HPG questioned everything. He could not get away with teaching the standard church doctrines with the standard lines without getting pummeled a bit. As he was telling me these stories about teaching in that class it sounded heavenly, like a StayLDS ward. It was also a group where everyone was very open about their own personal, spiritual, and familial challenges. It sounded like my kind of place.
So Zion does exist.
:clap: This past August my husband and I attended a private symposium on LDS doubt with Richard Bushman, his wife Claudia, and Patrick Mason. Of all the speakers Claudia gave the best sense of the world the Bushmans live in and it was heavenly, yet even among the 70+ doubters and strugglers in the room we had concerns that the Bushmans ward/world wasn’t what the rest of us experience. As individuals we couldn’t have these discussions or set up baby blessing events or home dinner groups without some serious reprisal.
Like you, I would love to run to that ward and drink deeply. For now though I will tuck these two happy acknowledgements of its existence in my pocket and hope to find a way to build Zion from where I sit.
Cool story. Thanks for sharing. I do think it is luck or roulette, but that there are some wards and some leaders that are more open or aware of things. I also know people who keep their shelf nice and strong. They simply don’t want to go there. I do think that is one understandable approach. We all only have a certain amount of time and capacity, and some doubts are lower priority than other things in life for some.
I also like the point you make…that sometimes we imagine others are super orthodox…but find out differently when talking one on one with them. I think there is a lot of that. More than we think. Which means…many others have questions or doubts…and find ways to stay and make it work. Sometimes we think we are the only ones thinking these thoughts. But we’re not.
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