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Extracted from another thread ( https://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10002 Roy wrote:
This brother came up to me after church to ask me more about my perspective. He was confused about how this could be. King Benjamin says that when we obey, God “immediately” blesses us. D&C says that God is “bound” when we do as He says. His desire for a job was righteous, was I saying that God might deny him? I did my best to quickly explain my experience and perspective that God may “immediately” bless us but the form that those blessings may take are not clearly spelled out and it could be a mistake to think we know exactly what God is going to do. It is not a simple formula where we can control the outcome. This brother thanked me for my time but still seemed confused. It just did not seem to make sense to him.
Thanks for articulating this issue with such a great example, Roy.
Some thoughts on this:
On getting blessings by doing some act– We assert that if A then B (Actions = Blessings). This is a concept that keeps reappearing in human religious thought. To take just one representative non-Christian look at it, consider Mesoamerican Polytheism… The Mexica (Aztecs) got in their minds that if they didn’t perform human sacrifices on a regular basis that the Sun God Huitzilopochli would not be able to maintain his struggle against the darkness, and without the sun, human prospects would be… dim. Ritual human sacrifice ensured the sun would shine (and the crops would grow).
I suspect that throughout human history, the societies that emerged as the most successful were those that demanded strict religious observance by their subjects, even to the point of major sacrifices, and used the carrot/stick of the Gods as rationale. We see this in our own successful Church history.
On not getting the blessings– This is the manifestation of the basic logic problem. We assert that if A then B (Actions = Blessings), but if so then why many times A, but not B… or worse, A then C (we Act, but Curses follow)? If God is to bless us when we do right, then why do we often feel no special blessing at all?
- Sermon on the Mount: “for [God] makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.”
Or why do we sometimes feel downright cursed:
Job: “I put on righteousness, and it clothed me… I was a father to the needy, and I championed the cause of the stranger… But when I looked for good, evil came; and when I waited for light, darkness came… I cry to you and you do not answer me; I stand, and you merely look at me. You have turned cruel to me; with the might of your hand you persecute me.”
- Sariah to Lehi: “Thou hast led us forth from the land of our inheritance, and my sons are no more, and we perish in the wilderness.”
- Hebrews: “The Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts. Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline? If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children. Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live? … Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time.” (Ouch) (PS, I actually like Hebrews a lot, the above section not withstanding) (PPS, Paul didn’t write Hebrews).
In Christian thought, when bad things happen to us, it is often FROM God. It’s part of “God’s Plan”. There’s some reason why God wanted you to get cancer or lose your job or lose a loved one or be scammed by an MLM. The sentiment I often hear from Christians is along the lines of new paths in life, new opportunities… that when God closes one door, He opens another. In Mormon thought, it’s a little more focused on honing our faith/works. God is making us tougher; making us grow.
My bishop once told a very close family member (I was there) that the reason that person had cancer was because “God has something He wants you to learn.” I let it go, because I understand the thinking, but I was pretty unhappy and sat down with the loved-one after to refute that idea. This kind of thing drives me a little nuts, personally, but I see it a lot. How else can we explain why bad things happen to good people?
The remedy for all this is that the wicked will get what’s coming to them (future Judgment Day) and the righteous will too (more faith in this life, heaven in the next).
I was in a EQ lesson one time a few years ago and a much younger guy was teaching. He’s one of those very good LDS people who works very very hard, sacrifices all for the Church, and never seems to see a reward. His lesson was on D&C 95, “Whom I love I also chasten”. He was going down that path of ‘God throws trials in our path to make us better’. I raised my hand cautiously… I just couldn’t let that stand. I said something to the effect that I don’t always see things in the standard way, but to me, I can’t imagine a God sitting in yonder heavens constantly watching for ways to mess with us. Rather, I think of bad things that happen as just part of being human; that the difference for the believer is in finding strength in faith to get through the bad stuff, where we might not be able to without faith.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on Church and personal perceptions of A then B, except sometimes when A then not B, or A then C.
A big part of my faith crisis was feeling like my mission was supposed to bring all these blessings, but instead made me miserable. I tried hard to be a diligent, obedient, successful missionary. My mission call letter promised that “more happiness than I had yet experienced would await me as I served as a missionary.” I really thought that as long as I was faithful and followed all the rules it would be a great experience.
But instead, I ended up saddled with severe depression that lasted even years after I got home. The mission was the darkest, loneliest, and most hopeless period of my life up to that point.
Then I got home and went to BYU, where every Sunday I heard people testify of how great their mission was because they were obedient and had faith, or even talk about their companions who had a hard time “because they didn’t exercise faith/weren’t obedient enough, etc”. So then I thought, what’s wrong with me? I was obedient, I had faith, I worked hard. But why was my experience horrible? Did God just not care about me as much? Was I being punished for something? I really felt like I should have been blessed, but instead got cursed.
I’m in a better place now that I’ve stopped trying to look for meaning and purpose in the experience. It was a terrible experience not because of any divine purpose, but because life just sucks sometimes. There are things I learned from it, but it didn’t happen for a reason. It’s just life.
I have a lot to say on this subject. It was the crux of my FC and assumptive world collapse. On Own Now wrote:
The remedy for all this is that the wicked will get what’s coming to them (future Judgment Day) and the righteous will too (more faith in this life, heaven in the next).
Yes, I believe that heaven is used as the place of last resort for seemingly unfulfilled promises.
On Own Now wrote:
The Mexica (Aztecs) got in their minds that if they didn’t perform human sacrifices on a regular basis that the Sun God Huitzilopochli would not be able to maintain his struggle against the darkness, and without the sun, human prospects would be… dim. Ritual human sacrifice ensured the sun would shine (and the crops would grow).
I suppose when you put it in that context I should be thankful that nobody is trying to sacrifice me in an attempt to appease the gods. You might even call that a …. “Blessing!”
😆 On Own Now wrote:
Sermon on the Mount: “for [God] makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.”
Moroni 7:12 tells us that everything that is good comes from God. Good things from God = blessings. Therefore, every good thing is a blessing from God. It is not difficult to see that even people that we might objectively feel are not very righteous have good things in their lives. Therefore, God blesses the unrighteous.
On Own Now wrote:
Job: “I put on righteousness, and it clothed me… I was a father to the needy, and I championed the cause of the stranger… But when I looked for good, evil came; and when I waited for light, darkness came… I cry to you and you do not answer me; I stand, and you merely look at me. You have turned cruel to me; with the might of your hand you persecute me.”
I think that the traditional LDS interpretation of Job was that it was some sort of test that he passed. Once he proved himself, God blessed him with double everything that he had lost (except his children, he had the same amount as before implying that his dead children were not truly lost to him in the eternal scheme of things … or maybe the thought of replacing dead children with twice as many new children [2 for the price of 1?] just did not sit right with the ancient authors).
On Own Now wrote:
Sariah to Lehi: “Thou hast led us forth from the land of our inheritance, and my sons are no more, and we perish in the wilderness.”
This is another example that just does not seem to bolster your point. Sariah was complaining against Lehi. She felt that her sons had most surely died and that Lehi and she would also die. When we fast forward in the story God delivered the boys from Laban and delivered her family from the wilderness. She was complaining of losing the “land of [their] inheritance,” when God was trying to lead her to a much greater “promised land.”Both of these examples has the speaker complaining because they do not yet see the big picture, or end result.
Roy wrote:
On Own Now wrote:
Sermon on the Mount: “for [God] makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.”
Moroni 7:12 tells us that everything that is good comes from God. Good things from God = blessings. Therefore, every good thing is a blessing from God. It is not difficult to see that even people that we might objectively feel are not very righteous have good things in their lives. Therefore, God blesses the unrighteous.
I have a lot to say on the subject as well, and this was also a major part of my faith crisis (and I believe this is pretty common among us). Unfortunately I don’t have tons time at the moment. I will comment on the above, supporting Roy’s position. D&C 130:20-21:
Quote:20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
All of us break some commandments. All of us also keep lots of commandments. D&C doesn’t say blessings are withheld because we obey some and don’t obey others – we’re blessed for the ones we do keep. Thus, even the murderers are blessed for the commandments they do keep – therefore, God blesses the “unrighteous” (I put that in quotes because we’re all unrighteous to some degree).
On Own Now wrote:
My bishop once told a very close family member (I was there) that the reason that person had cancer was because “God has something He wants you to learn.” I let it go, because I understand the thinking, but I was pretty unhappy and sat down with the loved-one after to refute that idea.
DW and I felt that this reasoning for why our third child was stillborn was particularly offensive. In our grief, we interpreted that sentiment to mean that because we were less responsive to the promptings of heaven (still small voice), God had to take drastic measures to get our attention. Since, not everyone must go through losing a child in death in order to learn all the essential lessons from life then there must be some distinction on who gets which trials/learning experiences.According to what I have termed the “currant bush” theory (after the famous talk by Hugh B. Brown), God tailors our life experiences and trails. “Many of you are going to have very difficult experiences: disappointment, heartbreak, bereavement, defeat. You are going to be tested and tried. I just want you to know that if you don’t get what you think you ought to get, remember, God is the gardener here. He knows what He wants you to be. Submit yourselves to His will. Be worthy of His blessings, and you will get His blessings.”
I read a book by an LDS gentleman that made the case that God had carefully tailored an individual’s life experiences to bring about the most growth and development in that person. To resent our circumstances was a sin of covetousness (by preferring our neighbors circumstances) and pride (by thinking we know better than God.) I wish I could say that this was just one school of thought among many but unfortunately, it is taught (to greater or lessor degrees) as though it were gospel truth. The author of this particular book struggled and struggled until he finally came to accept what God seemed to think should be his lot in life.
Arrakeen wrote:
Then I got home and went to BYU, where every Sunday I heard people testify of how great their mission was because they were obedient and had faith, or even talk about their companions who had a hard time “because they didn’t exercise faith/weren’t obedient enough, etc”. So then I thought, what’s wrong with me? I was obedient, I had faith, I worked hard. But why was my experience horrible? Did God just not care about me as much? Was I being punished for something? I really felt like I should have been blessed, but instead got cursed.
And this is another interpretation of the obedience = blessings model that I believe has the worst negative repercussions. It can make those that have been fortunate feel that they somehow are more deserving of their own good fortune. It can make those that have struggles feel that they are not as deserving as their more fortunate counterparts. It can comfort the comfortable and heap more ashes upon the already afflicted.
This diametrically opposed to the purpose of the “good news” of Christ.
Disclaimer, I don’t know anything but I saw a Holiday Inn Express commercial once. I think attempting to make sense of the universe is a human need.
Establishing predictable outcomes reduces stress and creates safe places. It’s also an important part of childhood development and is often achieved through establishing routines.
Belief in predictable outcomes might even be a spark that creates faith. Why even bother flipping the light switch if you don’t have the faith that the lights will turn on? Why do we have the faith that the lights will turn on? Because we’ve seen it before, it’s become predictable.
Existentialism is a pretty big deal with people. There’s lots of unpredictability in life and that uncertainty causes fear, or at the very least it raises uncomfortable questions. Injecting some certainty into the equation helps alleviate those sorts of issues… and that’s how I see a lot of this, attempts to inject certainty into the equation.
On Own Now wrote:
My bishop once told a very close family member (I was there) that the reason that person had cancer was because “God has something He wants you to learn.”Something bad, unexpected, and scary happened. Don’t know why… or more importantly I’m starting to feel nervous because I can’t see a way I can predictably avoid the same outcome. It must have been a part of god’s plan. God needed that person to have that particular trial for them to learn. Now the bad thing has a purpose that’s higher than “bad things just happen” and I can balance my equation.
Often it’s less about ministering to someone in their hour of need and more grasping at straws to balance an equation in order to maintain a cherished worldview.
On Own Now wrote:
On not getting the blessings– This is the manifestation of the basic logic problem. We assert that if A then B (Actions = Blessings), but if so then why many times A, but not B… or worse, A then C (we Act, but Curses follow)? The curse can be direct (e.g. pay tithing and get evicted because of an amount that could have been paid if not for the tithing contribution) or it could be the result of trying to maintain faith in the formula. Attempts at balancing the formula takes the form of revisiting A:
I did A.
B didn’t happen.
I must have not done A well enough.
Try A again, this time really putting in some effort.
Still no B.
I’m trying to do A as best as I possibly can.
No B.
I’m not good enough to do A. I’m a horrible failure.
I see that play out a lot at church. I’ve felt it myself on numerous occasions in the past.
nibbler wrote:
I did A.B didn’t happen.
I must have not done A well enough.
Try A again, this time really putting in some effort.
Still no B.
I’m trying to do A as best as I possibly can.
No B.
I’m not good enough to do A. I’m a horrible failure.
This sums up very nicely my faith crisis around never receiving peace about the temple a decade ago.
I don’t know much at this stage of my journey. But recently I have been thinking that blessings aren’t what I used to believe. As I parent my rapidly growing children, I give them lots of different kinds of “blessings”. But most of them are calculated opportunities to help my kids 1)have the requisites for health (eg clothes, food) 2) promote growth as they move from one stage to another (eg an allowance, karate lessons), 3)feel my love (eg time together), etc. Only very rarely do I actually “reward” them with tangible rewards for a specific action… like the other day when I promised a dollar to whoever could find my lost running shoe. I ended up finding it myself
😈 The point being, that if God operates as loving parents do, maybe “blessings” are a lot more plentiful than we realize.
I saw this story in LDSLiving today & thought of this post. Life can be a mystery sometimes. Those living a righteous life can suffer the challenges that come as well as those
that don’t live a righteous life. I sometimes forget that. Living the gospel according to the letter of the law doesn’t
guarantee that only good will follow us in this life. I hope these families will get through this challenge.
nibbler wrote:
Existentialism is a pretty big deal with people. There’s lots of unpredictability in life and that uncertainty causes fear, or at the very least it raises uncomfortable questions. Injecting some certainty into the equation helps alleviate those sorts of issues… and that’s how I see a lot of this, attempts to inject certainty into the equation.
DW and I were listening yesterday to a Facebook Live video of Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife. She was talking about dealing with the resentment of being taught something growing up that has let you down and turns out to be very limiting now. She gave several steps that were antidotes to the resentment.
One antidote is to realize that this is all normal development. We all tend to go through certain developmental phases as we grow. When the phase that we are in is no longer serving our needs we tend to seek the next phase. Like a crab outgrowing its shell.
Another antidote is to realize that people are teaching from their own stage of development. They are not lying to you. They are teaching you the world as they see it and this necessarily includes the limitations of their worldview.
Another antidote is to realize one’s own participation/complicity in that teaching. Regarding existentialism, I had fear. I was once asked what was my biggest fear and I said to be powerless or not to have control over my life. I once had a nightmare where I dreamt that I couldn’t move and it was terrifying. The church had some teachings that gave me a sense of control, predictability, power, and certainty. I latched onto them with all of my might and it gave me confidence to act. I did some great things with that sense of confidence. I went to school, went on a mission, met and courted my wife, got married, moved to a new state where I didn’t know anybody to start a career, and then we started a family. In hindsight, all of those things had risk of failure, but we moved forward somewhat oblivious. In a way, that sense of control and certainty was what I needed at the time.
Then my life circumstances and experiences changed and I found those previous teachings to be less helpful. I can have charity towards those that taught me and towards the younger version of myself that went “all in.” I can further attempt to be kind and charitable towards those that are teaching and needing these teachings right now.
Minyan Man wrote:
I saw this story in LDSLiving today & thought of this post.Life can be a mystery sometimes. Those living a righteous life can suffer the challenges that come as well as those
that don’t live a righteous life. I sometimes forget that. Living the gospel according to the letter of the law doesn’t
guarantee that only good will follow us in this life. I hope these families will get through this challenge.
MM and I were typing at the same time. Yes, Whatever brings the grieving families support in getting through this time with health and healing is valuable.
I do not focus on an afterlife – at all. I focus on making this life as close to “heavenly” as I can for myself, my family, and others. I focus on progress and growth, not destination. I believe in trying to live a heavenly life with heavenly relationships – as much as possible – realizing a whole lot is completely out of my control. I accept that, “It is what it is.”
A lot of people can’t handle that uncertainty – but it is what makes life enjoyable and meaningful to me.
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