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dande48 wrote:
except for the part about JS marrying Fanny Alger. There’s a lot of doubt that they were actually married, polygamous or otherwise .
This is an interesting tangent from the Mormon Primer thread. I had understood that the family of Fanny Alger understood her relationship to JS to be a form of marriage. What are the arguments/evidence for or against? Do those that doubt the marriage doubt a sexual relationship as well?
I’ll try to provide a quick response, but this is from my phone and I won’t be able to look anything up or get sources, so I might make some mistakes. For:
- – Joseph Smith and other leaders referred to it as a marriage after the fact
- – If it wasn’t a marriage, then Joseph could be accused of adultery, which he vehemntly denied.
Against:
- – There is something about Emma discovering Joseph with Fanny in a barn. What was going on is unclear. Was it an intimate encounter or maybe a marriage ceremony of some sort? We don’t know. But we know Emma was very upset by what she caught Joseph doing.
- – We have Oliver Cowdery referring to it as a filthy nasty scrap. Apparently “scrap” was also commonly used then to refer to an affair. This quote has been particularly damning, but maybe Oliver was just upset with Joseph at the time and wanted to defame him.
- – Perhaps the most damning of all. The supposed marriage/affair happened before the sealing power was restored. So the question is how could he be married to another prior to that?
Whatever truly happened between Joseph and Fanny, we may never know. But we know it was kept hidden from Emma and upset her and Oliver and others. Some would argue that polygamy was a convenient cover up after the fact of an affair. Others would say it was a marriage and not an adulterous relationship.
There’s lots more info about this that I don’t recall with clarity or have at my fingertips at the moment. I apologize if I’ve gotten anything terribly wrong.
Couple of points I’d like to make about this. – First, JS married many women and it is not known whether most or even many of these marriages involved sex. Unfortunately, we project our concept of ‘marriage’ onto what JS was doing and we then assume that they were having sex, planting gardens together, and inviting friends over. But he and they clearly saw these marriages as for “the next” world. Did he have sex with some? I’d say yes, but evidence is actually pretty sparse. Did he have sex frequently? I’d say no based on the lack of any identifiable offspring from JS other than with Emma.
– OC called it an “affair” between JS and FA. However, while “affair” is a term that we use almost exclusively to mean extra-marital sex, it wasn’t so in those days. Usually, they used the term “an affair of the heart” and it might only mean ‘love’ not ‘sex’. So, when OC called it a “dirty nasty filthy affair” he likely meant “matter” which might have meant to him that the two were caught in adultery or might have meant that JS married FA spiritually against OC’s concept of marriage, or that JS paid FA out of church funds or that JS falsely accused FA of steeling or… well, you get the drift. We fill in these gaping blanks with what we expect it to have been.
My personal opinion? This was adultery, plain and simple. Emma didn’t know or agree to it. Oliver (who had been JS’s right hand and wasn’t yet on the outs – that came because of this) called it what it was. It wasn’t honest, open, straight-up “plural marriage” (if any of that crap is truly honest). There was a 5 year gap after this before the so-called revelation on plural marriage. Come on. Obviously, nobody cares what I think, but that’s what I think. I suppose when we are dead, we can ask JS and Fanny. And then we can ask Emma.
“Scrap” can also mean a fight. hawkgrrrl wrote:
My personal opinion? This was adultery, plain and simple. Emma didn’t know or agree to it. Oliver (who had been JS’s right hand and wasn’t yet on the outs – that came because of this) called it what it was. It wasn’t honest, open, straight-up “plural marriage” (if any of that crap is truly honest). There was a 5 year gap after this before the so-called revelation on plural marriage. Come on.Obviously, nobody cares what I think, but that’s what I think. I suppose when we are dead, we can ask JS and Fanny. And then we can ask Emma.
I care what you think because I agree with every word. Oliver was also the author of the deleted section of D&C (at the time section 101) framing marriage as monogamous.
I believe it wasn’t a marriage. I think it was an extra-marital affair. I don’t believe polygamy was a cover for the affair. I think Joseph saw prophetic polygamy in the Bible and believed in “restoring” all things that seemed reasonable to him. I think it seemed reasonable to him – but that was after his relationship with Fanny Alger.
It’s suspiciously difficult to tell from the evidence whether Fanny and Joseph were married; which makes it feel suspicious, IMHO. If it wasn’t marriage, it is highly likely that Joseph Smith and the rest of the Church would’ve referred it to marriage after the fact. The lack of record and lack of details also feels suspicious to me. Here’s my list: In favor of the marriage:1. Fanny’s mother testified that a “sealing” of sorts happened.
Quote:I do not know that the “sealing” commenced in Kirtland but I am
perfectly satisfied that something similar commenced, and my judgment is
principally formed from what Fanny Alger told me herself concerning her
reasons for leaving “Sister Emma.
2. Mosiah Hancock recorded in the 1890s that Joseph had approached Fanny’s father to ask for her hand in marriage.
Quote:Samuel, the Prophet Joseph loves your daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife. What say you?” Uncle Sam says, “Go and talk to the old woman [Levi’s sister and Fanny’s mother] about it. Twill be as she says.” Father goes to his sister and said, “Clarissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife. What say you?” Said she, “Go and talk to Fanny. It will be all right with me.” Father goes to Fanny and said, “Fanny, Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife. Will you be his wife?” “I will Levi,” said she. Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said, “Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission.” Father gave her to Joseph, repeating the ceremony as Joseph repeated to him.
However, this seems to conflict with Fanny’s mother’s record above.3. William McLellin did refer to the act Emma caught JS and Fanny in as a “sealing”, which took place on the hay.
4. Joseph Smith did state in 1835,
Quote:The Lord God of Israel has given me authority to unite the people in the holy bonds of matrimony. And from this time forth I shall use that privilege and marry whomsoever I see fit.
However, this was more than a year before the sealing power was restored. Fanny did leave within a few months after the sealing powered was restored, but it seems much of the “incident” happened before then.
Against:1. Five years apart for the revelation and the rest of the wives.
2. After JS death, William McLellin wrote to JS III
Quote:Emma saw him, and spoke to him. He desisted, but Mrs. Smith refused to be satisfied. He called in Dr. Williams, O. Cowdery, and S. Rigdon to reconcile Emma. But she told them just as the circumstances took place. He found he was caught. He confessed humbly, and begged forgiveness. Emma and all forgave him. She told me this story was true!! Again I told her I heard that one night she missed Joseph and Fanny Alger. She went to the barn and saw him and Fanny in the barn together alone. She looked through a crack and saw the transaction!!! She told me this story too was verily true.
However, Joseph Smith III and his mother Emma went on denying that JS ever practiced or preached polygammy. William McLellin was also excommunicated twice; the first time for adultery, the reinstated and ordained an apostle, and then excommunicated again for apostasy.
3. Martin Harris’ record
Quote:In or about the year 1833, the servant girl of Joe Smith stated that
the prophet had made improper proposals to her, which created quite a talk
amongst the people. Joe Smith went to Martin Harris to counsel with him
concerning the girl’s talk. Harris, supposing that Joe was innocent, told him to
take no notice of the girl, that she was full of the devil and wanted to destroy
the prophet of God; but Joe Smith acknowledged that there was more truth
than poetry in what the girl said. Harris then said he would have nothing to
do in the matter, Smith could get out of the trouble the best way he knew how.
4. After Fanny left Kirtland, Joseph Asked her uncle Hancock to take her to Missouri, but she ran off with her parrents instead. She wound up in Indiana, where she married Solomon Custer, who wasn’t mormon. She also suspiciously married him only a couple of weeks after they had met…
5.After JS’ death, she was asked what her relationship was with the prophet. She replied, “That is a matter of my own. And I have nothing to communicate.”
6. Oliver Cowdreywas also excommunicated for the accusation that Joseph Smith had committed adultery with Fanny. Had it been a polygamous marriage, the Church council would’ve acknowledged it.
7. The official doctrine of polygammy wasn’t issued until 1843. Its earlier practice was shrouded in secrecy.
In FamilySearch.org they show JS with (43) spouses. Fanny Alger is not one of them. Did she stay in the church after JS’s death? Minyan Man wrote:
In FamilySearch.org they show JS with (43) spouses. Fanny Alger is not one of them. Did she stay in the church after JS’s death?
My understanding is that she didn’t. Her family came and took her away somewhat quickly and she remarried another man (not a Mormon) and this sounds like what someone of the time would do if they got pregnant out of wedlock. Fanny’s brother stayed in the church to Utah and he was very upset when polygamy was ended.Minyan Man wrote:
In FamilySearch.org they show JS with (43) spouses. Fanny Alger is not one of them. Did she stay in the church after JS’s death?
She joined the Universalist Church, after she moved to Indiana.
I think it was an affair. Fannie was apparently very attractive, Joseph succumbed. I do think plural marriage was a cover up for JS’s sexual appetite. It also played into the hands of the church in creating fast population growth among the more committed members when institutionalized as plural marriage doctrine eventually. The idea of having a lot of “morally approved” sexual partners is also something I don’t think the average man would mind — provided it was considered moral and sanctioned by the church if he had a moral compass. Plural marriage provides that morality.
A moral man would probably never go on about the sexual benefits of plural marriage, preferring to clothe it in spiritual or obedience terms. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the idea of multiple wives would be attractive to him.
Add an isolated, obedient community to the mix and I can see why it caught on. But I do think JS had a pretty strong libido and Fanny Alger was pretty and he succumbed.
dande48 wrote:
Oliver Cowdreywas also excommunicated for the accusation that Joseph Smith had committed adultery with Fanny. Had it been a polygamous marriage, the Church council would’ve acknowledged it.
My memory of this event probably comes from RSR. In it JS was insistent that he had never said that he was guilty of adultery or never used adultery to describe his relationship with Fanny. Once OC had acknowledged as much JS seemed satisfied.
From Wikipedia:
Quote:As Richard Bushman has noted, Smith “never denied a relationship with Alger, but insisted it was not adulterous. He wanted it on record that he had never confessed to such a sin.”[8] The best statement Smith could obtain from Cowdery was an affirmation that Smith had never acknowledged himself to have been guilty of adultery. “That,” wrote Bushman, “was all Joseph wanted: an admission that he had not termed the Alger affair adulterous.” In April 1838, Mormon leaders meeting as the Far West High Council excommunicated Cowdery, in part because he had “seemed to insinuate” that Smith was guilty of adultery.[9]
I also remember something about JS praying to know if he was guilty of adultery and getting the answer back that he was not. At any rate, the word adultery seemed to have stuck a very personal chord with JS.
I suppose it is a similar issue to having the president share classified information. If the president has broad authority to declassify information then any information that he shared becomes declassified on his say so. Similarly, if a prophet has the authority to both bind and loose marriages at will then any associations that he has with members of the opposite sex may be deemed marriages on his say so.
Roy wrote:
My memory of this event probably comes from RSR. In it JS was insistent that he had never said that he was guilty of adultery or never used adultery to describe his relationship with Fanny. Once OC had acknowledged as much JS seemed satisfied.I also remember something about JS praying to know if he was guilty of adultery and getting the answer back that he was not. At any rate, the word adultery seemed to have stuck a very personal chord with JS.
I suppose it is a similar issue to having the president share classified information. If the president has broad authority to declassify information then any information that he shared becomes declassified on his say so. Similarly, if a prophet has the authority to both bind and loose marriages at will then any associations that he has with members of the opposite sex may be deemed marriages on his say so.
That’s a fair point. I don’t think JS felt in the end like he had done anything wrong… but referring to your analogy to the president, I have to say it reminds me a lot of the Bill Clinton scandal. “I did not have sexual relations with that woman.” Only later to bring into question what he actually meant by “sexual relations” or “that woman”. In the case of Ann Webb vs Brigham Young, it was officially ruled that polygamous marriages were legally invalid; which means that what constituted as marriage beyond monogammy was entirely up to Joseph Smith (or God, if we assume he was acting under His authority). The real question is, was “marriage” applied by Joseph Smith to Fanny Alger’s relationship before or after the fact? Did Fanny herself define the relationship as a marriage? And if yes, was it in accordance with the gospel of Polygammy, as later defined by Joseph Smith?
I also think, if you have to ask if you’ve committed adultery, you probably have.
I just completed an interview with Brian Hales. Regarding Fanny, Brian said some interesting things. Quote:Don Bradley’s done some really good research and he dates the discovery to I think it’s June, May-June of 1836, so if the marriage occurred in say late April, May-June and lasted just a few months before Emma found out, which is entirely plausible, I don’t know that I embrace that, but Don at least we know when it broke up. We can date that pretty well, then it could have been a sealing. The authority could have been sealing authority that Joseph would have given to Levi.
He also said
Quote:But the other reason that I think this was an actual marriage and ceremony was performed was that Eliza Snow moved in in early 1836 to live with the Smiths and teach their children. In 1887, he was an independent historian, Andrew Jensen showed up at Eliza’s door and said I’m trying to make a list of all of the wives of Joseph Smith. He had been down to see Melissa Lott and Melissa Lot had given him thirteen names that he’d written down on this piece of paper and at some point instead of him writing down what Eliza was saying, he turned the paper over to her and gave her the pencil, and she wrote an additional thirteen names, and among those names were Fanny Alger.
So my theory is that if this had been an adulterous relationship, and he also wrote a paper on Fanny where he quotes Eliza as saying she was well-acquainted with Fanny, and that Fanny was the one that Emma made such a fuss about, so Eliza was there and I think Eliza would have known the details of what was going on. She considered Fanny a wife and so these two bits of evidence to me I think are convincing for me that this was in fact a marriage, probably not a sealing, and again I place it to late ’35, early ’36 but there’s really no way to date it.
But I think this is my favorite quote.
Quote:the people that Joseph Smith toldabout Fanny Alger as a plural wife, they didn’t believe him. But most of the people that learned it from Fanny did believewhich is interesting. Fanny’s family believed. The family that Fanny went to live with was Chauncey Webb and Eliza Jane Webb, they believed that this was an actual marriage, but Joseph is caught with Fanny and they’re in a haymow, they’re in a barn, and we were out there in Kirtland with the John Whitmer Historical Association meeting this last September, and I asked Mark, ‘where is the barn?’ He had no idea. It’s long since been destroyed. They were discovered by Emma “in the act.” We could assume that was something sexual. Some people want to say it was in the act of getting married by Levi, the ceremony. It’s a bit of a stretch. Maybe he was in the act of something affectionate. Virtually anything affectionate would have been over the line in Emma’s eyes understandably. She caught them, and she’s not accepting Joseph’s explanation at all.
‘This is a plural marriage. God authorized it.’
‘Yeah right. She’s pretty and this isn’t working for me.’
Joseph, according to one of the accounts gets Oliver and says in the middle of the night. ‘Oliver, come help me with this.’ Oliver hears the story and sides with Emma and thinks Joseph is having an adulterous affair. That was his opinion, probably right up until his death, that Joseph was not authorized to marry her. It wasn’t a marriage. He made hints to members of the high council that Joseph had been guilty of adultery. He did not accept any story of a marriage ceremony as being valid, and neither did Emma.
It kills me that Fanny was a more believable witness than Joseph.
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