- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Sorry if you have not seen the movie “The 6th Sense.” If you don’t want the plot spoiled, stop reading. But that movie reminds me of how extremely perplexed I was that others could not see the “issues” in the church. They just seemed so blatant and obvious.
I do know some people just “shelve” issues and try and ignore them and some write off ANY disagreement/complaint with church as separating the wheat from the tares, but during the height of my faith crisis I felt like I was the kid in the 6th sense and nobody else (at least in my ward) could see some of the HUGE issues. I have heard John Dehlin mention that in each ward there are maybe a single-digit number of folks that really struggle with many of the issues he as shed a light on. I kept thinking, “it is only a matter of time that this wave that has come over me will wash over the ward and some of them really don’t know how to swim at all.” I still have a bit of wonder (but less urgent) if things have changed and the younger generation really isn’t going to bow down to authority like previous generations did. I can tell you from my experience in being a scoutmaster that it was noticeable the lack of leader respect when I compared it to when I was a young scout. Now we are talking about young teenagers, but I do see it as a bit of a trend.
Have others felt like this early in their FC? If so, did it calm after a while? Did it every go away?
Do any of you think that we are just at the start of a bigger movement? I know the NOM group is swelling, but I don’t know if I have really studied what that means.
I too, am perplexed how others could not see the “issues” in the church. They just seemed so blatant and obvious. In a HP class I was teaching, I gently suggested that there were some issues in Church history that could be problematic, if not for them, then perhaps for their family or friends. I asked whether they would like to know these issues and discuss how to respond. I got a very stern response from one brother who said simply, “We don’t need to go into all that. All we need to do is to bare our testimonies.” I fear that such studied certainty will not serve the Church very well. The notion that the prophets & apostles will never lead the saints away, and that if the leaders have spoken the thinking has been done, leaves no wiggle room. Trees that don’t flex in the wind are more likely to come crashing down.
There is just so much info on the internet that can be overwhelming, and they have no tools to deal with it. For me, the single most important resource for surviving my FC is this site. The second is the Given’s book “The God Who Weeps”.
Search “dementers” in our archives. I wrote a post a while ago that deals with this topic, using Harry Potter stuff. (I am on my phone and can’t write long comments right now.) Thanks. I will look. That is one thing about phpBB – it is good for a stream of conscience chat, but it is not good at a group being able to signify a really good thread.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3864&p=61679&hilit=dementers#p61679 Hope I pasted the thread in correctly. It’s really good.
Time helps. I feel less disoriented and distraught at church these days.
It’s in our human nature that when we believe something, we think of it as self-evident… obvious… plain to see… and we have a very difficult time understanding why others don’t feel the same way. I think it’s very helpful and healthy to get beyond that. I find it gives me a lot of peace to recognize that other people are just as perplexed by me as I am by them… and then to treat them the way I hope that they will treat me: accepting our differences without judgment. To the particular topic here, of why “others could not see the ‘issues’ in the church” which “just seemed so blatant and obvious”, let me point out a few things to consider:
– We live in a not-black-&-white realm. I know very faithful, fully practicing members of the Church who do see ‘issues’, but they put far less weight on them than you or I do. They weigh more heavily in their hearts the feelings of the spirit, the communion with God, the pursuit of Good as they see it.
– I believe that the Church is changing before our eyes. Slower than I want, for sure, but much much faster than could have been predicted 20 years ago. I take the current transformation of the Church as evidence that people in the Church do see issues; but issues that they are trying to resolve.
– When it comes to doctrine, I think it’s helpful just to let people believe, if that is what they want. What difference does it make to me if someone else believes the Moroni story? I don’t, others do. If I can’t allow them to believe without letting it bother me, then I have no right to hold my own beliefs in peace.
I did like the dementors threads and blog post. On Own Now wrote:It’s in our human nature that when we believe something, we think of it as self-evident… obvious… plain to see… and we have a very difficult time understanding why others don’t feel the same way. I think it’s very helpful and healthy to get beyond that. I find it gives me a lot of peace to recognize that other people are just as perplexed by me as I am by them… and then to treat them the way I hope that they will treat me: accepting our differences without judgment.
I agree. I am a real people person, so I want them to walk away from any exchange with me and not be upset. Even on some of the things that the leaders of the church say that get under my skin, I honestly can say that I very much appreciate the time and effort they put in as leaders. I try and put myself in their shoes.
On Own Now wrote:To the particular topic here, of why “others could not see the ‘issues’ in the church” which “just seemed so blatant and obvious”, let me point out a few things to consider:
– We live in a not-black-&-white realm. I know very faithful, fully practicing members of the Church who do see ‘issues’, but they put far less weight on them than you or I do. They weigh more heavily in their hearts the feelings of the spirit, the communion with God, the pursuit of Good as they see it.
– I believe that the Church is changing before our eyes. Slower than I want, for sure, but much much faster than could have been predicted 20 years ago. I take the current transformation of the Church as evidence that people in the Church do see issues; but issues that they are trying to resolve.
– When it comes to doctrine, I think it’s helpful just to let people believe, if that is what they want. What difference does it make to me if someone else believes the Moroni story? I don’t, others do. If I can’t allow them to believe without letting it bother me, then I have no right to hold my own beliefs in peace.
Agreed. Very good points. I am already MUCH less disturbed by this. I don’t expect everyone to see all the same issues that I do, but it is hard for me to find that it seems on the surface NOBODY is seeing the issues. I am starting to find that many more are not as far off as I am, but the behavioral norms in the church is to reiterate the company line. I generally try to go soft when someone does that and tell them I am glad that works for them and I am glad that it is easy to find quotes from the church leaders saying there is generally a wide set of belief’s allowed within the church.
Some members will not see the flaws in the same light that we do. I have learned to enjoy as Jesus said “he who has ears, let him hear.” Recently I heard someone in church say “we are all on our individual spiritual journeys” and it made me smile. Those sitting in the center may not notice the walls of the tent expanding. Orson wrote:Some members will not see the flaws in the same light that we do.
Lenticular printing. Anamorphosis. Perspective art. It’s all about the viewing angle, or even the viewing instrument.
I like this one:
[img]http://www3.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/Research/Anamorphosis/ver_anam.jpg [/img] Also:
[img]http://greeneggsandlam.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/indianajones.jpg [/img] Indiana Jones couldn’t see the bridge until after his “leap of faith.” The bridge became clear to him afterwards but that didn’t make that first step any easier to take. Indy tossed some sand on the bridge after he got across to help others (I assume the knight dusted the thing off every day) but in the case of a FC it’s an individual journey. It’s not as simple as pointing out what is now obvious to us with our new perspective because other people can only see things from their vantage point. They may not even be interested in crossing the gap.
I’m on board with On Own Now’s comments. People are asking those same questions about us! Why can’t [we] see the obvious? It’s even more challenging for them because they
knowthat we knew, if that makes sense. Heck, I could get in a time machine and go back 10 years and get into an extremely comedic argument with myself about the issues. I wasn’t ready then. I was interested in crossing that gap but I had to struggle to allow myself take that leap of faith. Funny that, I always considered my FC as losing my faith but now I consider it finding a new faith (I love hindsight). I don’t think any of that would have happened if someone was trying to get this horse to drink. I had to want it, the feelings had to be mine, it had to be my reality.
Wonderful comments, everyone. Thank you! I posted the following on my personal blog just last month:
“Competing Realities: Grace, Atonement and Charity Are Key”( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2015/01/conpeting-realities-grace-atonement-and.html An excerpt:
Quote:At the most basic level, “reality” is whatever it is for each and every person. When a schizophrenic is hallucinating, those hallucinations are reality to him. I mean that completely; they are reality to that person while they are occurring. When he hurts others in that situation, he isn’t avoiding reality; he is reacting to reality – living within his own reality.
My avatar and signature is all about perceptions and how we see things differently. I came to learn, and accept, and embrace this concept about life, and it has helped me understand how differently the world can look to people. It has helped me with my relationships with others. Our brains seem to do this because we only have so much capacity, and survival is helped with focus. However, learning and empathy is helped by broader vision. There are times both are helpful.
I do not objectively see my kids and their behaviors the same as I see other kids. My love, my commitment, my trust, my connection with them clouds my views in some ways to overlook some things they do and I can forgive or not let things bother me…perhaps because I know they are flawed but can be comfortable with them that some of the things they do just don’t bother me when covered with the wonderful feelings and experiences we’ve had in the past and I expect to have in the future. Love overcomes the flaws I see, or sometimes keeps me from seeing it at all.
I know I would annoy others if I share my feelings about my kids with others, because others don’t have the same emotional connection, and therefore, the same vantage point I do.
This happens with spouses, family, friends and things we are very connected and invested in. We selectively perceive.
It also happens the opposite way. Now that I see my ex-wife in a different view then when we were married…it can be easy to only see all the negatives, and wonder “Why can’t everyone else see all these things she does?” And yet…that is likely not objectively accurate either.
I believe faithful active members are also like this. They are invested in their faith, they love it, they look for the good and dismiss the bad, they bare testimonies and at church are affirmed constantly of the good. They don’t see it objectively. And don’t want to.
And when someone sees the things previously hid, it can turn to a critical eye to only see the bad from them on. Even if the “thing”, the external organization or events have not really changed, we can emotionally view it all so differently and wonder why others don’t see it the same way. But it is because
WEhave changed, not the external thing. It’s good to be aware of this and know it is happening. Others will never see the same events and facts as I see them. Because I process it through my brain and body and emotions, and therefore, it becomes my view of things. When I hear others tell me their view…it is just revealing something about how they process things. And I generally gravitate towards others who process it similar to me.
But nothing has changed. The church was started, and there were critics from the start. And faithful defenders. And what we are experiencing has been experienced (perhaps different specific situations, but still the same experience) ever since, by all generations. You choose to believe, or you don’t.
For those in the church that don’t “see the ghosts”…that’s OK. I know they are happy with their view, and I don’t think they are wrong. But I don’t know how to unsee it the way I see it. So I just move forward, embrace paradox and diversity, and learn from it.
Heber13 wrote:For those in the church that don’t “see the ghosts”…that’s OK. I know they are happy with their view, and I don’t think they are wrong. But I don’t know how to unsee it the way I see it. So I just move forward, embrace paradox and diversity, and learn from it.
When I had my assumptive world collapse it was painfully disorienting. In rebuilding my assumptive world I specifically remember choosing elements that could not later be “proven” wrong by likely personal experiences. I landed on a view where God is extremely aware and concerned for us but is somehow constrained from intervention. Now when I hear stories of miraculous interventions (especially over mundane things like lost car keys) the parts that hint at coincidence or not divine origens stand out prominantly in my mind. This is a form of confirmation bias as I am “seeing” largely what I expect to see.
I feel that I adjust for this by a dab of agnosticism. Just because I do not believe in God’s interventions does not necessarily mean that He could never intervene. Just because I do not have certain knowledge of such things does not mean that another person could have that knowledge. I know that my “reality” is not necessarily self evident to others. The trick is to live, work, and love with those that see things differently. Mutual respect goes a looong way.
:thumbup: 
[img]http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/images/paintings/whim/large/nsc_whim_756_a_large.jpg [/img] When a paint palette hides your true political allegiances.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.