Fear

[Anonymous]

Feel free to peek at my quick intro thread here. http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1169

So, I’m trying to figure out what’s next, and one thing I’ve realized is that I’m afraid of making mistakes. I know this isn’t a healthy/good thing, but don’t you guys every worry about actually going to hell, losing exaltation, or whatever you want to call it? I’ve been able to adapt a little, by dropping things that I don’t want to deal with, cutting the guilt-tripping, etc, but I’m still totally afraid to cross any “real” lines.

For example, I can’t yet consider the idea of cutting my church attendance, not wearing garments, or anything like that, because if all the TBMs are actually right, it seems like I’m really losing my shot at afterlife blessings by going there.

Everyone here talks a lot on these forums about staying lds if/when it helps us spiritually, taking what’s good, and discarding the bad, etc, but that really doesn’t fit with philosophy that I have to stay faithful to the Church itself to receive everything I could after death.

Now, this is one thing that really bothers me about religion, because if I were to invent religion as a way to keep society in tow, that would be one of the first things I would make up. So I’m pretty uncomfortable with the idea of God actually thinking that way. But that’s my logical side talking, and that half of me doesn’t have much faith at all (I’ll leave that for another post).

So, to recap – Do you all ever ask yourself whether you’re giving up exaltation/blessings/whatever while on your personal journey? If it’s something I should move past, any suggestions on how to do it?

Thanks – emb

[Anonymous]

Most people here will advocate for only doing what feels comfortable. Go SLOW and don’t try to make changes too quickly.

If certain things feel wrong you could just wait to make changes until it feels right. Some people experiment with changes or just do things even though they still have guilt feelings. I know the guilt is very conditioned for some.

Example: I never modified my garment wearing until I was completely convinced that they were not something I needed to wear. I experimented with a day here or there without them. No guilt. Now I wear them all the time out of fear that my family/parents will ask questions that I’m not ready to answer.

I still live the word of wisdom. I have always been hardcore about it. I don’t even drink pop, at all. I don’t even like taking medications. I hate the smell of coffee. So, it really makes little sense for me to modify this behavior just because I can.

Same goes for additional piercings or tatoos. I have no interest.

Now is a time for you to decide what your beliefs and convictions are. What do you think about church attendance, WoW, garments, etc? Once you decide those things you may find that guilt no longer there.

I’m not in fear of God sending me to hell. But, I have always felt led by the Spirit on this journey. I think our journey’s are approved. It is a little worrisome sometimes that some of my current beliefs are condemned by the scriptures or current leaders. Again, the God I have felt and feel exists is love. Love is what is important.

It is harder for me to stop fearing the judgement and rejection of my friends and family. You will see by some of my comments in the forum that that is a bigger struggle for me.

You might try reading Romans, Hebrews and Galatians. There is some good stuff in there that really spoke to me about letting go of the law and just having faith and walking in the Spirit. I kinda went through a really neat born again experience when reading and meditating on those passages. It helped free me from the letter of the law mentality and feel comfortable following my own God given path.

[Anonymous]

embwbam wrote:

So, I’m trying to figure out what’s next, and one thing I’ve realized is that I’m afraid of making mistakes.

For example, I can’t yet consider the idea of cutting my church attendance, not wearing garments, or anything like that, because if all the TBMs are actually right, it seems like I’m really losing my shot at afterlife blessings by going there.

I struggle with the fear of making mistakes too. I can still hear my TBM parents voices inside my head about the straight and narrow path and the LDS culture that sometimes mis defines what that path is.

And I do fear my standing with God. I never did take making covenants lightly and breaking them is sobering for me. So, in this way I don’t think the fear is unhealthy. I think it shows reverence and respect for the commitments that God asks us to make.

I actually have had to battle with this these last 7 days as my frustration hit an all time high and I was ready to walk away from the church completely. My husband and I decided to take a serious break from the church and I was so serious about that break that I thought of taking off the garments and buying a bottle of wine to celebrate my liberation. But then I stopped all that emotion and thought deeply about what I was actually doing and how far I was really prepared to go.

Sometimes I can’t decide if God is leading me back into the church or to rise above the church or be in the church but not of the church ( if that makes sense). I actually like the idea of rising above. This last bit feels good and right and liberating and more secure than all the “doings”. I was reading another thread where Bridget said something about attending church and only focusing on the Savior and how that made all the resentments go away. I think there is something to this and the importance of retaining the spirit of the law and the vision of why we do what we do in our hearts. But I am not sure living in the spirit of the law means we abandon the letter. The Lord, I still feel, asks us to make and keep covenants. All the rest…..I can chuck out the window. But not my covenants. Those I didn’t make with the church. I made them with my God. The one who supports me from moment to moment.

It seems that God has allowed me a little unorthodox latitude with my own journey. He knew I needed it. But I feel Him leading me back to what’s important in terms of my outer behaviors too. I don’t know if my path is for everyone. I tend to believe that if the covenants are true for one they are true for all. But that isn’t all I think.

[Anonymous]

My philosophy from the start of my journey was “As long as I’m doing what I believe is right, that’s all that matters.”

God couldn’t possibly blame me for that, now could he?

We all take risks with our salvation… Martin Luther was a Catholic monk who was no doubt taught that outside the Catholic church there was no salvation. But he saw something wrong going on in his church, and decided to stand up for what he thought was right. That’s what matters.

Joseph Smith could have been perfectly content to attend a methodist church, but he stepped out of that bubble for something that he thought was right.

The early Christians gave up circumcision and animal sacrifice – two things which they previously believed made them clean and guaranteed their salvation. Instead they put their faith in what they thought was right, Jesus.

Maybe garments is your animal sacrifice? A comfort from an old way of thinking, but if you don’t believe it’s what you need, it’s something that can/should be let go.

God knows your heart. I’m convinced that even if you became an atheist, God would be okay with it as long as you thought you were doing what was right and would change in a heartbeat if you thought otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all your help. It certainly resonates with me that God will be plenty willing to forgive me for doing what I feel is right. I guess a part of me is worried that I’m simply completely wrong about God, and he’s just as the TBMs describe. In that case, it doesn’t matter what I think, God is allowed to let me go for anything he wants. I think there’s some truth to both ideas about God.

The guilt-voice I’m hearing isn’t my own, it’s Sunday School and Priesthood lessons, where people talk incessantly about how serious our temple covenants are. Obedience and Consecration are things that I’m not really living right now – let alone attending the temple at all.

So, I don’t actually want to stop wearing garments or attending church, it’s just that I’m not even able to go there.

I suppose there are no easy answers either way. Maybe the best way to think about it is that I wouldn’t even want to live with a God who was willing to punish people for making the wrong choice on religion in a world as confusing as this is. Then either way, I’m ok At least the TBM God has great places for those deceived by the philosophies of men, and I don’t think the scriptures support splitting up non-celestial families.

[Anonymous]

embwbam wrote:

I suppose there are no easy answers either way. Maybe the best way to think about it is that I wouldn’t even want to live with a God who was willing to punish people for making the wrong choice on religion in a world as confusing as this is. Then either way, I’m ok At least the TBM God has great places for those deceived by the philosophies of men, and I don’t think the scriptures support splitting up non-celestial families.

I didn’t mention this very thought earlier because I didn’t want to be inappropriate. However, since you have brought it up I will admit that this is how I feel.

If God has done and said everything attributed to him in the Old Testament, etc. then I really don’t know God at all and would not want to be a part of that. I don’t want to be part of a God that commands genocide or wipes out men, women and children or makes allowance for the rape of women. I’m not capable of worshipping a being that is not as or more evolved than I am. I know that there are ways to interpret the scriptures that make it seem better, but I can’t do that anymore.

I believe that God is love, so it is no longer an issue for me. God lives through us, Christ is manifest through us. That’s how I see it.

[Anonymous]

Great post because I know exactly what you are feeling. A few years ago a was terrified when a came to the realization that I really did not like JS. I had always been taught the JS would be a judge in the spirit world, and it really scared me to think that I would be judged by someone I did not fully respect. (A great fear tactic on his part)

I think the Church seems to thrive on fear. After all, haven’t we been waiting in “the final second of the final minute of the final hour” for the return of Christ pretty much since the church was founded? Not being good enough, not doing enough, not magnifying my callings and serving the church enough…. these things have always been at the top of most members minds. I think this is one reason that you find so many members using anti-depressants.

I have thought a lot about Heaven and Hell, and I would like to share my opinion. I do not see these as physical places as much as I see them as spiritual places. Heaven is a closeness to God, whereas hell is a separation from God. I figure that as long as I am working on my relationship with God in whatever way works best for me, than I am heading in the right direction.

[Anonymous]

It is so interesting. I’ve been thinking lately why people still stay in the church even if they believe something else. A lot here were born in the church so socially it is your tribe (as you call it) . I was born in the Catholic church. I went to Catholic grade school and high school. All my memories, traditions etc. are in the Catholic church. When I visit my mom I go to Mass with her and I get a feeling like I’m coming home.

So, when I learned the history of the church it was easier for me to dismiss the things that I don’t believe anymore. But, I have a husband and children that are very TBM and that is because they have been raised and their home is in the church and so I stay, really, for them. We all have our own experiences that make us think and feel the way we do.

But, I basically think that God is a very loving God and he knows our hearts. He knows that we are trying our best to find out what we believe.

That is why we can’t judge anyone for the way they believe.

[Anonymous]

Fear is never a great reason to do anything because the thing you fear is yourself and the power of choice. Fear tells you to hide your light. Fear tells you to let others make the choices for you or to seek for a sign to tell you what to do. Let go of fear, and all you have left is yourself and your own responsibility for the choices you make. If you let go of fear, you pick up personal growth.

[Anonymous]

embwbam wrote:

I guess a part of me is worried that I’m simply completely wrong about God, and he’s just as the TBMs describe. In that case, it doesn’t matter what I think, God is allowed to let me go for anything he wants. I think there’s some truth to both ideas about God.

The guilt-voice I’m hearing isn’t my own, it’s Sunday School and Priesthood lessons, where people talk incessantly about how serious our temple covenants are. Obedience and Consecration are things that I’m not really living right now – let alone attending the temple at all.

First, welcome embwbam! Your thinking is common among us here. We (probably) have all had some conflicts alon our journeys that we had to wrestle with. Your statement above that you may be “wrong about God” is a good one, I think! I can’t imagine anybody that does a fair amount of pondering and research not having thoughts about what God is, or even IF he is! Science does a pretty darn good job of explaining our creation/evolution without needing the intervention of a mystical supreme Being. And when you look at the history of the politics of religion, it’s easy to see how the “fear of God” concept came to be.

I suggest considering all possibilities…consider that we may not understand certain things about science yet that may re-define the nature of God completely. I am comfortable with the concept that God is all that is good; God IS love. That paradigm allows me to live a good life, relatively free of fear, guilt and shame. But surprising to many, it teaches one to be more moral and ethical than ever before. You learn to absolutley live in the moment. Gratitude for all that is in your life leads to deep emotions that lead to so much joy and peace than you can imagine. It lays out a path for healthy marriage, relationships with others, and great physical (and spiritual, IMO) health.

Consider that your parents/forebearers did the best they could with what they had. There is no need to be angry with or blame them for doing their best. Be open to what life brings you — as they say, “it’s all good.” I believe it is!

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Fear is never a great reason to do anything because the thing you fear is yourself and the power of choice. Fear tells you to hide your light. Fear tells you to let others make the choices for you or to seek for a sign to tell you what to do. Let go of fear, and all you have left is yourself and your own responsibility for the choices you make. If you let go of fear, you pick up personal growth.

LOVE all this…so true! Thanks Hawk!

[Anonymous]

Embwbam (Isn’t there something more poetic we can call you? How about Em?),

Everybody’s comments have been so good! I have never had a moment’s thought that maybe I should return to my Stage 3 beliefs. It’s unthinkable to me. I guess I hung in there patiently with any anger and frustration (that would be in 2001, 2002 and earlier) until I received a clear and unmistakeable belief to follow. When I first said I was a heretic (October 27, 2003), I said it with full and unreserved conviction, and no connection or allegiance to my earlier held beliefs. And yet my practices still changed very slowly, not because of fear, but because of wisdom and prudence. And my new beliefs were more primal and true to my original child than ever.

just me wrote:

If God has done and said everything attributed to him in the Old Testament, etc. then I really don’t know God at all and would not want to be a part of that. I don’t want to be part of a God that commands genocide or wipes out men, women and children or makes allowance for the rape of women.

Yeah, that.

Do only that which you are certain is right, and only do it after long consideration and discussion. Doubt everything. But never doubt Love.

[Anonymous]

I think when we are caught up in things are “right” or “wrong” (absolutely for all situations a “black and white” world) – there is fear that although I live in mortality behind a veil of consciousness (we see through a glass darkly), I am going to choose the wrong answer, and be damned.

What if mormonism is the wrong religion?

What if drinking cola is in the Word of Wisdom and I’m living wrong health codes?

What if Joseph Smith said something wrong once?

That can be scary. The more I study to find the answers, the more I see the questions are complex and hold multiple meanings and applications and interpretations. And in the end, I have to try to reconcile all that I hear and read with what feels right to me. Just between God and me, what do I think is right for me (not right for you or anyone else), what will help me learn and grow, what will help me feel at peace or love in my heart.

I mean, if there was a “right” and “wrong” answer to everything…wouldn’t someone have published that book by now? The Bible or other scripture certainly doesn’t specifically answer things, it is written for spiritual uplifting…not to answer all questions…but to help you have faith so you can answer questions on your own.

Then it makes me think God can allow different things for different people and situations…and that’s ok…there doesn’t need to be one “right” or “wrong” answer…just answers that work for me, and let God run the universe and deal with everything else.

[Anonymous]

I feel better already. You’re all right, there’s nothing to be worried about. God IS too good punish us for being confused. Life is too confusing for him to act otherwise. I’m willing to trust that it will be alright.

Quote:

Embwbam (Isn’t there something more poetic we can call you? How about Em?),

You can shorten it to emb. I usually use my full name, but I’m not ready to “come out” yet. (The intertubes live forever, you know). It’s an old anonymous handle I use that references the cartoon, the Tick. Bonus points if you can guess how (Amusingly, the other place I use it a lot when downloading TV shows).

Thank you all so much for your kind words. My concerns kind of melt away after posting and hearing from all of you. They haven’t been resolved so much as they seem insignificant.

[Anonymous]

Starting on this journey, I have also often felt: ‘What if I’m displeasing God with my very thoughts?’, ‘What if all this is just a way for Satan to deceive me so I lose my testimony and become an incapacitated servant, preventing me from bless the lives of others?’, etc…

This thinking is so very ingrained in us. I remember when I last was in the temple, I was not feeling the spirit there, my concerns weren’t wiped away as I’d hoped for… I was pretty scared that now I’ve really gone against God, and he must be very displeased with me.

But now I think most of the feelings I had was caused by the great confusion I had (and still have). I don’t think God is displeased when we think for ourselves, when we strive to learn the truth. As long as we are truly honest with ourselves, and with God, I think he/she won’t hold it against us. The God I view is loving, understand us every bit. I think we are much less led by the spirit than I used to think, much of our emotional reactions come from what we’ve brought up with feeling is secure and right. And of course we all have a moral compass that tells us things which are right, (but this compass can become very confused with wrong teachings I’ve realized). We are truly here on our OWN, to find our own path, our own way to increase in our capacity to love, to serve our fellow beings, we won’t get the spirit every step of the way telling us what to do (at least I’ve never had).

I can see that there is temptation in the doubts that we can get… we could be tempted to think that just because this and this and this is wrong, I’ll throw away everything. I’m free, I can cheat on my wife, I can start leading an immoral life because it really doesn’t matter. That would be very harmful. But as long as we are honestly trying our best according to our conscience, I feel you can’t be off much wrong. How well I believe in the ‘letter’ and in the ‘truth’ as explained in priesthood/RS has nothing to do with how good a person I am, I’ve come to realise. This journey has really brought up to my eyes that what truly matters is how loving we are, how we treat our fellow man and our relations – this is what defines us…

[Author]

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