Feeling I Can’t Go On

[Anonymous]

Shawn,

For me the angst stopped the moment I realized there is no smoking gun. In otherwords you will never be able to prove belief vs atheism, Christianity versus Muslim, Mormonism versus Baptist. No matter what you choose you have to step into the darkness before the peace comes. I never understood that until about a year ago, once I did. I have been at peace since. Faith as Paul says is to hope for things the evidence of which not seen.

Is mormonism True? Heck if I know, but I think it is, I have had spiritual manifestations that have led me to believe God wants me to think it is, I believe it is, hope it is…. and I live by faith. An expectation of knowledge goes right out the door. I am ok with never knowing absolute truth.

[Anonymous]

Shawn,

I really appreciate many of your insights. I can tell that this really is something important to you and that you have a caring spirit. It does make it hard to let somethings go. I think that I am the same way. I have had many difference experiences that have giving me many different roles to play. I am a dad, a vet dealing with some PTSD, a Mormon, an employee, and the list goes on and on. I have noticed that when I get bogged down with just being a vet, or with my faith crisis that I tend to loose focus on the other roles I also play and then I am no good to anyone. I don’t want want just one role to define me, so when I am feeling overwelmed with one aspect of my life, I purposely set that aside until I get back in balance. I will read stuff here but I won’t post. I have a good friend that has helped me a great deal the last few months and he ask me all most every time I see him how my FC is going and many times I will tell him that I am not doing so well but lets talk about his issues or sports or any thing besides my FC. I guess I am just trying to say, step back and take a few deep breaths and enjoy the other areas of your life outside of the church. You are a good man.

[Anonymous]

Shawn, Don Quixote is my favorite book, followed by Moby Dick. Gulliver’s Travels is excellent too. There’s a lot to be learnt from el Don and Gulliver spiritually. It’s just a pity people tend to focus on the early parts of each book (windmills + Lilliput & ?Brobinag) and neglect other parts.. I think particularly of when the don experiences self-doubt or when Sancho gets his island and has to mete out justice… and the Laputa episode (an excellent send up of science) & the yahoos and horses.

Regarding the gospel, I could see the church s being a beautiful woman. As she grew up, she got involved in some stupid things, wore bad make up, said and did the wrong things sometimes but regrets it as she’s grown up. She’s been prideful and spiteful because of her beauty, as focussed too much on the external, but her real beauty comes from within, in her small gestures. Some people see her as a pretty face with no real personality or intelligence. Others as too nice and prim. Her sister churches make fun of her because of all the attention she gets, partly out of envy. Sometimes they tell her she is ugly and she believes it. She has been harrassed, and had and unwanted attention from men with bad intentions. However many good people love her too, for both her inner and outer beauty. Like many such women, she is imperfect and that makes her more endearing.

[Anonymous]

Sam – I love your church woman. That is one of the coolest analogies. She is lucky to have you.

[Anonymous]

Thanks I’m glad you liked it, I thought your stained glass analogy was good.

Mine was a bit tongue in cheek though!

People have had some bad experiences at church, cwald for example and some other horror stories exmos tell, but against that you have the kindness of a bishop story recently posted here, or the other recent thread about cynicism being turned around… I struggle with the BoA, and cannot prove the historical truth of the BoM, which I love. And for all the stupidity in the church, and the murky origins of the temple ceremonies, I love having a TR and find I enjoy going there.

Church members are amongst the best people I know, and that’s why their behavior can hurt. Most of my friends are outside the church, but since they live by looser standards (as some would admit, themselves), I can ironically forgive them more easily. When church leaders do or say dumb things, it’s even worse. We notice it more.

[Anonymous]

My pleasure, Shawn. If you need to talk, please email me.

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

Thanks for the support. When I said that stuff about Brother Brigham, my wife actually told me the Gospel is simple. Like you say, there is still much to learn about the basics, though.

The gospel is simple (be excellent to each other). The church just seems to do a good job of complicating it. And as for church history… Most certainly not simple! To reference Alice: Curiouser and curiouser… Ever wish you’d ignored the rabbit hole?

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

Shawn,

For me the angst stopped the moment I realized there is no smoking gun. In otherwords you will never be able to prove belief vs atheism, Christianity versus Muslim, Mormonism versus Baptist. No matter what you choose you have to step into the darkness before the peace comes. I never understood that until about a year ago, once I did. I have been at peace since. Faith as Paul says is to hope for things the evidence of which not seen.

Is mormonism True? Heck if I know, but I think it is, I have had spiritual manifestations that have led me to believe God wants me to think it is, I believe it is, hope it is…. and I live by faith. An expectation of knowledge goes right out the door. I am ok with never knowing absolute truth.

I really like your podcast with Brian Whitney where you discuss this. There is evidence on both sides and it comes down to faith. Thanks for your podcasts!

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

…I have a couple of thoughts on this –

1) I agree that many things are a matter of perspective – but that is not the same thing as saying that we choose our perspective. For exampe, I would have a really hard time declaring that the grass is blue and believing it to be blue because my past experience tells me that it is green. I do believe that we can influence our perspective, but our ability to do so is limited and varies between individuals.

2) I think of the faith crisis process as similar to the steps of grief. You don’t get to just opt out. I know for me, in my process that I like to call “assumptive world collapse,” I felt like I was being propelled forward through the process. As though my psyche was reverting to some type of hardwired back-up programming that was rooted below the consiousness. I did have some choices along the way but my choices seemed to either help smooth the process or complicate the process – there was no excape hatch – it had to be lived through.

My hope for you is that you cut yourself (and others) some slack. Life is messy and there isn’t any way to “fix” it.

I reckon my overall perspective of a thing is warped by focusing on only a part of it. For example, I will have an inaccurate view of Joseph Smith if I only listen to Truman G. Madsen’s lectures that paint the prophet as the best darn guy who ever lived. On the other side of that, focusing only on the perceived scandals causes me to have an overly negative view of him. Perspective. You are right, though. Our ability to influence perspective is limited.

I agree that I can’t opt out of this crisis. I could ignore it, but that would jut be delaying it.

[Anonymous]

You also have to recognize that many smart, informed people have come through this information and have fallen on both sides. IT is tough, dang tough, and I feel for you. My faith crisis only lasted in the real bad part that sucked, about 6-8 months. I went from knowing almost everything to knowing 1 or 2 things and hoping some things and yet I would never want to go back… this is way more beautiful here. I actually appreciate not knowing. It is a blessing to not know and still act. I love it. In the crisis, you want to go back… in reality, you can’t nor if you understood, would you want to. IMHO Anybody who wishes they could go back, hasn’t exited their crisis completely yet.

[Anonymous]

Shawn wrote:

I agree that I can’t opt out of this crisis. I could ignore it, but that would jut be delaying it.

That’s my issue… I keep putting stuff on the mental shelf and life goes on ok… but then I discover something else to put on the shelf and the whole shelf is sat there, staring at me.

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

You also have to recognize that many smart, informed people have come through this information and have fallen on both sides. IT is tough, dang tough, and I feel for you. My faith crisis only lasted in the real bad part that sucked, about 6-8 months. I went from knowing almost everything to knowing 1 or 2 things and hoping some things and yet I would never want to go back… this is way more beautiful here. I actually appreciate not knowing. It is a blessing to not know and still act. I love it. In the crisis, you want to go back… in reality, you can’t nor if you understood, would you want to. IMHO Anybody who wishes they could go back, hasn’t exited their crisis completely yet.

I try to take solace in the first sentence. But I wonder how honest they are being with themselves. But I don’t know how I could go back to being ‘in full faith’ with the information I now know.

[Anonymous]

I’m being totally honest with myself, and I consider my faith to be full. It’s just different than many others.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I’m being totally honest with myself, and I consider my faith to be full. It’s just different than many others.

I understand that and take solace in it. But today mine isn’t. I’m running on empty.

[Anonymous]

I want to tell every one about the last three days and then I will divert the attention from myself.

I skipped work on Thursday because I was a bit sick. I moped around all day. That evening, my wife asked if anything is going on. I was just silent for a few seconds and then said “I’ll tell you later” because I was going in the house from the garage. I later told her “I’ve been preoccupied with faith issues.” She said “What, you don’t have faith?” I said “No, that’s not it.” Surprisingly, she didn’t press the issue and we just let it go, but she remarked a little later that there has been darkness about me and I have been detached.

Later she asked, “Are you feeling better? Does it last long?” And I just said “WHAT!?!” How could she think I was getting over my issues in a matter of hours? But then she said “I’m asking about your cold. I am feeling sick too and I wonder how long it lasts.” Haha!

On Friday I told her “I don’t think you understand. I have been going through a faith crisis.” I let her know I have concerns regarding church history and I have doubts. She said I could benefit from rereading the Book of Mormon and I snickered. “It’s not that simple” I thought.

She took it very well – it wasn’t like our intense interaction last summer. I told her it was hard to learn about some things regarding Joseph Smith and that I didn’t know he had multiple wives when I was serving a mission. She disagreed with me and said that I did know. I was stumped, but thought about it for a few minutes, and then I remembered that I had learned some things about it before my mission. My wife knew that because we were in the same ward and dated as teenagers. Good grief, how had I believed that I didn’t know about Joseph’s polygamy until a few years ago?! I may have even heard about polyandry as a teenager, but I’m not sure. My wife said a woman visited her seminary class to teach about Joseph’s wives. Interesting.

Anyway, my wife is totally aware of the issues, but never had a crisis over them. Here’s the gist of what she told me Friday night:

Quote:

You know, plural marriage exists in some form on the other side. I don’t worry about it because I trust Heavenly Father. If I have to be a part of it, I won’t care because I will be celestialized and it will make sense then, even though it doesn’t make sense now.

The more I learned about Joseph Smith, the more I actually sympathized with him. The poor guy was persecuted and then he was commanded to start plural marriages. I don’t think he handled everything well. He was trying to be obedient and trying to please Emma, and he just bungled it and hid it from her. And it was not mainly about sex. The world now is so sexed up and people automatically turn to sex as the main issue. It was really about sealings. And the poor guy is not here to defend himself – to tell us what he was thinking and why he did some things. I am not going to judge him harshly. There was a lot going on and we don’t know everything.

And poor Brigham Young. I have sympathy for him because I like to talk – I like to speak my mind and talk about ideas and explore things like he did. And people listened to him and recorded his words according to their perception, and now people drag him through the mud and he’s not here to defend himself.

Whoa, that blew my mind. Years ago, she was quite negative about polygamy, which is understandable. Anyway, she totally understands that prophets are sinners like the rest of us, but chooses to see the good.

I feel a lot better now. It was good to talk to her. She has awesome insights – she said other things that I can’t remember now.

Tonight we went to the temple, which is a rare thing. I go maybe once a year. On the way home, I told her I had a epiphany. It has to do with Joseph and Brigham’s faults and the church covering them up. I said “The current brethren talk about the good stuff Joseph and Brigham did. They don’t talk about the faults of dead men. Aren’t we all taught to look for the good in people? Is it such a crime to accentuate the positive? Yes, the brethren are guilty of talking positively about dead prophets.”

And then I was thinking about how I had forgotten what I had learned about Joseph’s marriages as a teenager and said “I bet there’s more instances of stuff being taught and I’m just not aware of them.” I have heard the seer stones were mentioned in an old New Era article. Does anyone know about that? Maybe I should dig around and see what has been published. However, I still think some historical stuff should be mentioned in church so fewer people get shocked when they find things on the internet.

I’ve also been thinking of a black man I taught on my mission. Brother W graduated summa cum laude and was in medical school when I met him. He’s smart. Thankfully, I did not have to talk to him about the priesthood ban. He sorted it out with God on his own. He told me that the Spirit told him that God is in charge and the priesthood was extended to all men according to His timetable. I personally do not agree with that sentiment right now – I think the stupidity and stubbornness of man caused the restriction and delayed the removal of it – but the point is that Brother W moved on! He got baptized and moved on. If a black man can get over it, why should I stew over it?

After all, maybe I should do what my wife says – read the scriptures and pray and follow the Spirit. Her faith is awesome. I hope no one is offended by any of this. I’m just relating what has been going on. I feel I am making good progress, but I understand others will not see things as I do now. I hope we can all make some kind of progress, though.

Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone who has supported me here.

[Author]

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