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I was going to link to that Mormon Therapist post on Patheos too. So so good, and her conclusion that talks like this are (unfortunately) keeping her in business as a therapist, well, that’s just sad but true. Quote:my local area seems to be moving toward the more militant style and it saddens me
Then they will have a mighty fall indeed, because the church is progressing rapidly as Ray observes. Some holdouts are not getting with the program. There are always those who retrench in the face of progress.
Curtis wrote:… I don’t pay any attention to what he says anymore. …. I simply ignore him.
It’s not worth it for me.
And how does that go when you say that in church?
It is not fair or reasonable to expect members to simply ignore comments from an Apostle of the One True Church.
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He’s not an apostle, cwald. He’s one of many Seventies, even if he is in a leadership position among them. I’ve listened to quite a few leaders who say some things with which I don’t agree, since they also say things with which I do agree; I’m not sure I’ve ever agreed with a central theme in anything I’ve heard from him, so I ignore him – just like I do with some people with whom I’ve worked who have no direct supervision over me.
I don’t say it that bluntly at church, obviously. I’m not stupid. I have said quite a few times in church, in multiple wards and stakes over multiple decades, that I don’t agree with various things apostles have said. If his comments came up in a class I was attending, I would say that I don’t agree with him.
I know the reaction would be different in your stake, but I’ve done and it continue to do it in the ones I’ve attended.
Oh. He isn’t? I didn’t realize he was not an Apostle. I guess my apathy is starting to work! 
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cwald – I kept making that mistake with Callister too. He’s a 70. Christopherson is an apostle. Curtis, I also am so glad that you can not be bothered and “Ignore” it. But I would say that MOST of the TBM members that I know will only draw a deeper line in the sand. I would have 2 years ago. I would have thought… well, I was questioning if I should let my teenage son off the hook and tell him to not buy into the guilt about masturbation but now I KNOW it is true since it is on the front page of the ENSIGN! Gasp! I can even expect that this article is going to be used to teach my 13 year old son how to feel horrible about himself during Y/M. How do I teach my child that this is crap when he is learning crazy stuff like this at chuch… and it doesn’t help that my husband were given a choice he would lean towards Elder Calisters views. I don’t even want him to read it b/c it might make him go more orthodox in that regard. bigger gasp! Growing up believing 100% of this article… wow. It honestly was extremely damaging to my self esteem to say the least. I know that sounds extreme and if I had a different family that wasn’t so OCD & black and white, things could have been so different, but I am still trying to retrain my brain about things and release so much of the guilt that I grew up feeling and STILL feel. I loved the article that Mcckay posted. It was great, and so were your points Mckay. Well said!
I’ve made myself wait 24 hours to try to calm down but I agree with mom3, sometimes we have to take the lead from Samuel the Lamanite and others. I’m working on a post that will be shared with all my LDS Facebook friends.
It’s not enough, for me, to just ignore Callister’s destructive nonsense. It is horrible and I can’t let it pass through without comment.
There are many really destructive messages in this talk:
– Women get the man they dress for
– Overcoming addiction needs willpower not medication/counselling
– Your level of purity makes you eligible for a partner of equal purity
This horrible talk will be used in youth firesides, Sunday lessons, Bishops interviews.
Somewhere in the world I’d guess that this talk will be the final straw that broke the camel’s back for at least one more member. Probably more. It may also be the talk that leads to one more youth suicide.
It is not enough for me to simply ignore him. Ignoring him will not make it go away.
I’m completely fine with you all not doing that. I wouldn’t have been able to do so 2 years ago. Today the stakes are different, for me. I’ll let you know how it goes.
Let me make myself more clear: When I see anything from Bro. Callister, I don’t read it. Thus, I ignore it.
In cases like this, however, I don’t ignore it – since I became aware of it without reading it myself. I have made comments in various places about it, and I will tell people I disagree whenever it comes up in any class I’m attending. I will mention it in the Sunday School class when it is appropriate. I probably will write a post about it on my personal blog – or, at the very least, share a link to one of the excellent posts about it I’ve seen already.
My first comment about the talk was meant simply to share how I handle, as my default setting, what Bro. Callister says whenever I see that he has said something – by ignoring it.
I should have made that more clear.
Quote:“Some of the best things I have ever thought of I have thought of during bad sermons.”
Wendell Berry,
Jayber CrowSo, we can look forward to lots of good stuff on the heels of this talk?
Curtis wrote:Let me make myself more clear:
When I see anything from Bro. Callister, I don’t read it. Thus, I ignore it.
In cases like this, however, I don’t ignore it – since I became aware of it without reading it myself. I have made comments in various places about it, and I will tell people I disagree whenever it comes up in any class I’m attending. I will mention it in the Sunday School class when it is appropriate. I probably will write a post about it on my personal blog – or, at the very least, share a link to one of the excellent posts about it I’ve seen already.
My first comment about the talk was meant simply to share how I handle, as my default setting, what Bro. Callister says whenever I see that he has said something – by ignoring it.
I should have made that more clear.
Thanks for the clarification bro.
Sorry if it came across as a dig at you. I by no means meant to accuse you (of all people!) of apathy and “head-in-the-sand-ism.”
I worry that this talk is effectively an application letter. The (lack of) health of some of the 12 means there may be a vacancy in the quorum soon. I sincerely hope the orthodox senior apostles don’t see this as an opportunity to shore up the conservative influence in the leadership.
(Let it be Elder Caussé… please!!!)
It’s worth reading pages 12 and 20 of the same edition, articles on moving on from abuse, divorce and getting out of an abusive relationship. These are also both “headline articles” on the front page. http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf Here’s what I just posted to my Facebook feed (sent only to LDS friends): **************************************************************************************
The March 2014 Ensign includes a devotional address given last year by Elder Tad R. Callister of Seventy. The article is, for me, an example of what Elder Uchtdorf was talking about when he said at the October 2013 General Conference:
“…to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.
I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.”
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng I hesitated to post the following but couldn’t let it pass without comment.
Elder Callister uses a communication approach to talk about morality that I don’t think is productive or positive.
The first thing he says that I want to address is:
“The dress of a woman has a powerful impact upon the minds and passions of men. If it is too low or too high or too tight, it may prompt improper thoughts, even in the mind of a young man who is striving to be pure. Men and women can look sharp and be fashionable, yet they can also be modest. Women particularly can dress modestly and in the process contribute to their own self-respect and to the moral purity of men. In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for.”
The last sentence is particularly upsetting. Please don’t use this approach with your daughters or the young women you teach. Please don’t teach this message to your sons or the young men you interact with.
We need to teach both young men and young women to respect themselves in the way they dress and respect other regardless of the way they dress. If a woman is in a negative relationship, her wardrobe choices don’t ever mean that she “deserved it.” There is never any justification for abuse or disrespect in a relationship and teaching that “women get the type of man they dress for” seems to suggest otherwise.
I’d imagine that this was not Elder Callister’s intent. We are all imperfect communicators. I include myself in that statement. In our imperfect communication we can sometimes say things that the hearer will take to mean something else. Please don’t perpetuate this message by repeating his inappropriate choice of words.
My second concern is this statement about addiction (specifically talking about pornography addiction, but it could apply to other addictions):
“If you are afflicted with this malady, you need to do all within your power to overcome it. It may require confession, intense prayer, fasting, immersion in the scriptures, replacing idle time with constructive time, putting strict boundaries on Internet usage, professional counseling, and the like, but you can overcome it. At some point will-power will be an indispensable ingredient—there is not a pill or counseling technique to solve every addiction.”
If you or a loved one is struggling with an addiction, please don’t believe that “will-power” is the solution and don’t tell yourself it’s because you’re not praying or reading the scriptures enough. Of course prayer, scripture study and will-power are important but not instead of the proven techniques for overcoming the illness of addiction.
The church’s Addiction Recovery Program follows a 12 step change process. It is based on gospel principles, using professional and proven approaches. In the program “will-power” is not one of the 12 steps.
If you (or a loved one) are wrestling with addiction, it is not because you (or they) are weak-willed. Don’t tell yourself or someone else with addiction that they just need more will-power.
The ARP section of LDS.org even says:
“Some people consider addictions to only be bad habits that can be conquered by willpower alone, but many people become so dependent on a behavior or a substance that they no longer see how to abstain from it. However, through Jesus Christ and His Atonement, you can recover and enjoy all the blessings of the gospel.”
http://addictionrecovery.lds.org/home?lang=eng The ARP is a practical and meaningful application of the atonement and the gospel. The ARP is effective and positive. It works. Don’t undermine it or reject it by instead relying on will-power alone.
The full Elder Callister article is on page 44 (link below). It’s a shame that the talk has been given the credibility of publication in the Ensign. Let’s avoid perpetuating the ineffectively communicated message further by not using it in talks, firesides and lessons.
Like Elder Uchtdorf said, “There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine… (God) works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.”
http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf (P.S. This post has only been shared with LDS friends, not my full friends list)
Mackay, WOW! I wish I were so brave as to oppose this on Facebook. I want to, but I am not ready for the backlash I would receive and I know that I am extremely emotionally vulnerable right now, so I wont publicly at this time. I hope to get there someday because I really want to be part of the change IN the church and I feel information opposing LDS leadership coming from an active LDS could bring about so much good and help many to find the courage to pray and find their own beliefs. Maybe I will sit on it for a few weeks and see how I feel about sharing it then. I feel the same way about the LGBT community and advocating rights for them. I have often wondered what I would do if I lived in the 60’s and fancied myself in sit in’s and fighting for civil rights, but I find myself being the coward who is too afraid of verbal backlash regarding SSM. I am frustrated with my cowardice inclinations, but I know that too much backlash might make never go to church again and it could destroy my marriage at this point.
Anyway, thank you so much for your courage and words.
Curtis, I also hope that I didn’t offend you. I didn’t mean to and I really admire your ability to see things from every perspective. Thank you for clarifying what you meant and I look forward to reading your response to this article.
A few thoughts on the morality speech: 1) The analogy to the Supreme Court is flawed. I understand that the Supreme Court in the early 1900’s ruled that the federal government does not have the constitutional right to tax incomes. To my understanding they have never reversed that decision and have not consented to hear cases on this topic. This forms the basis of the No Income Tax movement.
Surely the Supreme Court has made bad decisions and has reversed itself in times past. If the only precedent you have to site is over 100 years old – I would consider your case to be a shaky one.
2) I am also struck that Paul’s modesty quote in context clearly seems to be talking about dressing plainly – without fancy adornment of jewelry and probably even makeup (like the Amish).
I wonder if Elder Callister knows how badly he is misrepresenting Paul in this instance.
3) I take issue with the idea that it is better to have never sinned because some of the consequences of sin remain ever after one has been forgiven. He gives STD’s and unwanted pregnancies as examples. I feel that this and other statements (that women get the men that they dress for and that living virtuously qualifies you to have a similarly virtuous spouse) give the impression that if you follow the plan you will be rewarded with a semi-charmed life. In the scheme of things life is really messy and lots of bad stuff happens largely outside of our control. Some of the bad stuff one might encounter is so much worse than an unplanned pregnancy. I just feel that this premise is unrealistic and creates false expectations in the minds of our young people. Perhaps I am overly sensitive to this stuff because similar false expectations set the stage for my own FC.
4) Finally, I disliked the depiction that a young couple that has extra-marital sex cannot be in love. I know in my own situation DW and I could hardly keep our hands off of each other and barely managed to hold off until after we were sealed. It seems like such an unfair distortion to question our love for each other and even our character if we had taken just a few additional steps pre-marriage. Is pre-marital arousal really of the devil?
👿 Overall – this seems like a scare piece through and through. Elder Callister might have promised blindness and hairy palms and still been consistent with the rest of his speech. He seems to be trying to scare the YA straight.
P.S. I’m very interested in the response you get on your facebook post Mackay.
I only see the Ensign up to February on lds.org. And Callister… wasn’t he the one that recently gave a talk at some CES devotional? It seemed like he was ganged up on for that talk and now this. I guess I’ll have to read/listen to some of his talks to understand why he deserves his reputation.
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