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opentofreedom wrote:
I am frustrated with my cowardice inclinations, but I know that too much backlash might make never go to church again and it could destroy my marriage at this point.
Sometimes I see a movie of someone that put everything they had behind a principle only to be victorious in the end. To me it often seems like a pyrric (sp) victory in that so much of their life is lost at that point is the vindication really worth it?
I’m also aware that sometimes people put everything they have behind a principle only to lose all and never “win.”
There are many ways to be a force for good in this world. I go about my way and others go about theirs. Hopefully, when our paths cross we can hug and call each other friends.
Since I was the instigator of this thread, I wanted to let everyone know, I am reading the responses and appreciative of the discussion. This topic and issue hit me so hard. I have been involved with Young Women and Men most of my life. I grew up as an active one in the church. I have siblings who did also – of both genders. I know the impact of youth teachings. For happy and sad. I could write a book on it. As an adult I have been a leader on every level imaginable and for extended times in each situation. From that vantage point I continue to see the impact of information on Youth. The results last a long time. Likewise my husband spent years with young men and we have seen painful experiences that didn’t need to happen to young men, happen because of thinking along Elder Callister’s line of thinking. We have watched self-worth crumble because of lessons and talks that become accusatory. The atonement becomes a beating rod, not a strengthening rod. And a youth forever sees himself as un-valued.
I don’t have much to add to the conversation at present. I am adding each of your comments to my processing and trying to read the writing on my heart in this matter. At present I have no clear response, and it seems like this issue deserves a response.
opentofreedom wrote:Mackay, WOW! I wish I were so brave as to oppose this on Facebook. I want to, but I am not ready for the backlash I would receive and I know that I am extremely emotionally vulnerable right now, so I wont publicly at this time. I hope to get there someday because I really want to be part of the change IN the church and I feel information opposing LDS leadership coming from an active LDS could bring about so much good and help many to find the courage to pray and find their own beliefs. Maybe I will sit on it for a few weeks and see how I feel about sharing it then.
I feel the same way about the LGBT community and advocating rights for them. I have often wondered what I would do if I lived in the 60’s and fancied myself in sit in’s and fighting for civil rights, but I find myself being the coward who is too afraid of verbal backlash regarding SSM. I am frustrated with my cowardice inclinations, but I know that too much backlash might make never go to church again and it could destroy my marriage at this point.
Anyway, thank you so much for your courage and words.
Curtis, I also hope that I didn’t offend you. I didn’t mean to and I really admire your ability to see things from every perspective. Thank you for clarifying what you meant and I look forward to reading your response to this article.
I in no way wanted to share this as a call to arms. I’m completely fine with you not sharing this. In fact I’d actively encourage you not to share it. I’m getting both positive and negative feedback from this. On the whole, it’s positive. Some that is more critical.
I am in a very different “place” these days. There are a few people whose opinions matter most to me. It’s a fairly short list and they’re OK with what I’m doing. The rest doesn’t matter. I’m comfortable with any fallout that might happen but I absolutely wouldn’t have been a year or two ago.
I do not think of you as “weak” if you don’t share this. Posting concerns on Facebook often does not end well. It is not a great idea. It can offend and it can cause rifts. I’ve tried to be as respectful as possible while also being clear about my perspectives.
I’m also aware that in some ways I’ve raised the stakes and put more pressure on myself to stay. If I now leave the church people will be able to shake their heads wisely saying “the road to apostasy was already clear…” I want to show that a “middle-way” approach works.
Roy wrote:opentofreedom wrote:I am frustrated with my cowardice inclinations, but I know that too much backlash might make never go to church again and it could destroy my marriage at this point.
Sometimes I see a movie of someone that put everything they had behind a principle only to be victorious in the end. To me it often seems like a pyrric (sp) victory in that so much of their life is lost at that point is the vindication really worth it?
I’m also aware that sometimes people put everything they have behind a principle only to lose all and never “win.”
There are many ways to be a force for good in this world. I go about my way and others go about theirs. Hopefully, when our paths cross we can hug and call each other friends.
Thanks Roy. Those are some great points. I do have a friend who has “sacrificed it all” and I don’t see her living any happier. You caused me really ponder the ways in which I am doing “good”. I have to say, that I can think of many. However, it the intimate conversations with friends instead of publicly taking a stand, and that seems to have great impact from me. I suppose that is where I work best;) Thank you so much for helping me to see that.
And yes, I would like to hug and call each other friends! Beautiful! I love this ward.. best. ward. EVER!!!!
nibbler wrote:I only see the Ensign up to February on lds.org.
And Callister… wasn’t he the one that recently gave a talk at some CES devotional? It seemed like he was ganged up on for that talk and now this. I guess I’ll have to read/listen to some of his talks to understand why he deserves his reputation.
I’ve just been called out on this by two different people. They’ve said: “how are you reading a March 2014 article when we’re only just receiving our February edition?”
I’m a little stumped.
“Umm… because I trawl around apostate websites looking for dirt to get mad about” (that’s not going to cut it is it?)
I thought it was already on LDS.org so only realised it’s on another “holding” website that the church owns. If you try going to the website it’s hosted on you just get:
Mackay. I in no way felt that you were encouraging me to share it on FB, and feel the same way in most cases. I just admire your courage and look forward to the day that I do what my heart tells me is the right thing to do, regardless of the backlash. If your message helped ONE person find the courage to stand up to this damaging message in church because they saw your response, then HURRAY!!!!!! I think I will wait till I have better footing … maybe years..?? Right now, as seen in my previous post, I work better in private and intimate conversations. The interesting thing that I find, is that when I am conversing with people about subjects such as these, most individual LDS seem to have very similar beliefs, but put us in a group and what the &^%& happens??? I will be addressing this over some time, with various posts, building to some of the actual quotes. I decided to do it that way in order to avoid a novel and to build a comprehensive argument against the overall culture, not just focus on one aspect of it. My first Facebook post is a simple, straightforward rant about putting the responsibility to control men on women. I said:
Quote:Rant warning:
We need to stop blaming women for how men react to them. After all, when Jesus condemned looking on a woman to lust after her, he didn’t add ANY disclaimers, including how she is dressed. He also didn’t place any blame on her; he laid it all at the feet of the men who viewed her improperly. Rationalize all we want, but we wrest scripture when we build hedges about that law.
I don’t care who teaches it, even if it’s a church leader. Blaming women (of any age, including teenagers) for how men of any age react to them (or putting the primary responsibility on women for how men react to them) is wrong. I believe in teaching modesty (meaning “moderation”), but how someone reacts to what they see as immodesty in choice of clothing is that person’s issue – not the person who is being seen as immodest.
Men can look at a woman in a burkha or a nun in a full habit and sin in their thoughts – and they can look at women at a nude beach or South Beach and not sin in their thoughts. The issue is with the MEN, not the women. I hate a lot of the ways, “Man up,” is used in our society – but, in this case, being real men includes taking responsibility for our own actions and reactions and not requiring women to control us by constraining themselves.
/end rant
mackay11 wrote:nibbler wrote:I only see the Ensign up to February on lds.org.
And Callister… wasn’t he the one that recently gave a talk at some CES devotional? It seemed like he was ganged up on for that talk and now this. I guess I’ll have to read/listen to some of his talks to understand why he deserves his reputation.
I’ve just been called out on this by two different people. They’ve said: “how are you reading a March 2014 article when we’re only just receiving our February edition?”
I’m a little stumped.
“Umm… because I trawl around apostate websites looking for dirt to get mad about” (that’s not going to cut it is it?)I thought it was already on LDS.org so only realised it’s on another “holding” website that the church owns. If you try going to the website it’s hosted on you just get: If it were me, I’d say that I’m a regular reader at By Common Consent, and that they linked to it there. In my mind, it’s a totally legit site that any fair-minded person can respect. Also, isn’t there a discussion going on at MDDB? I don’t read there at all, but that’s considered “faithful,” I think. (?)
I read the article. I’ll be honest, 99% sounded like a typical GC talk or something you’d hear a TBM say in a lesson. I recently went back to reread The Miracle of Forgiveness and there was more 😯 on one page of that book than could be found in the entirety of that article.I’ll admit I don’t know the guy so shame on me. I suppose he has an earned reputation? I mean he only seems to be toeing the “party” line so why has he been singled out a few times here? I’ll have to hunt down the text from his CES devotional talk to see if that sheds some light on the matter.
nibbler, my issue is that he consistently mis-interprets scriptures to make points that are ultra-conservative in content. I don’t see him as toeing the party line; I see him as trying to drag the line tighter in any way possible. I wrote a post that will appear on my personal blog in the near future that talks about driving tent stakes so far into the ground that it ends up constricting and distorting the tent the stakes are supposed to be supporting as expansively as possible. That is what I see in what he presents – distortion and over-hammering that constricts the tent other leaders are trying to enlarge.
Ann sent me a PM about this comment. She understands what I was saying, but got me thinking. I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding by those who lurk on this board, including StayLDS members, family members and my local leadership, as far as my “faith” is concerned. cwald wrote:Oh. He isn’t? I didn’t realize he was not an Apostle. I guess my apathy is starting to work!
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Yeah. Apathy is my goal anymore. It’s the only way I have found to deal with the pain and anger and frustration.
Once upon a time, years ago, I was accused by family members of being luke warm. That really bothered me….I was so far from luke warm…I don’t know if anyone can really understand just how far from lukewarm I was. I took the church very serious and was raging hot to find the answers and the truth and a middle way to remain Mormon. Hot. Very hot. There was no luke warm to be had in my spiritual journey at that time.
It simple didn’t work for me. So now…yes….my goal…is total, utter apathy for all things Mormon. I have a ways to go yet.
I think mom3 is so correct. And I completely understand her OP. Yes. I get it. I’ve often compared my feelings about the church to those of Mormon and Moroni. I simple lost hope in my people. I lament that the mormon church is not as true as the people who belong to it. Once the church takes away the MIddle Way, which does happen to some of us, the only defense left against pain, frustration and anger, is apathy.
Ann wrote:mackay11 wrote:
I’ve just been called out on this by two different people. They’ve said: “how are you reading a March 2014 article when we’re only just receiving our February edition?”I’m a little stumped.
“Umm… because I trawl around apostate websites looking for dirt to get mad about” (that’s not going to cut it is it?)I thought it was already on LDS.org so only realised it’s on another “holding” website that the church owns. If you try going to the website it’s hosted on you just get: If it were me, I’d say that I’m a regular reader at By Common Consent, and that they linked to it there. In my mind, it’s a totally legit site that any fair-minded person can respect. Also, isn’t there a discussion going on at MDDB? I don’t read there at all, but that’s considered “faithful,” I think. (?)
LOL, that was me starting the thread. I’m canard78 on MDDB. My relative who asked the question would consider even MDDB (mormondialogue for the newbies) to be apostate (they still believe in a hemespheric BoM model etc).
(And yes cwald, like a dog returning to his vomit, I started posting on MDDB again. I’m sorry).
The family member has asked to speak to me rather than exchange messages by text. Uh-oh.
cwald wrote:Ann sent me a PM about this comment. She understands what I was saying, but got me thinking. I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding by those who lurk on this board, including StayLDS members, family members and my local leadership, as far as my “faith” is concerned.
cwald wrote:Oh. He isn’t? I didn’t realize he was not an Apostle. I guess my apathy is starting to work!
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Yeah. Apathy is my goal anymore. It’s the only way I have found to deal with the pain and anger and frustration.
Once upon a time, years ago, I was accused by family members of being luke warm. That really bothered me….I was so far from luke warm…I don’t know if anyone can really understand just how far from lukewarm I was. I took the church very serious and was raging hot to find the answers and the truth and a middle way to remain Mormon. Hot. Very hot. There was no luke warm to be had in my spiritual journey at that time.
It simple didn’t work for me. So now…yes….my goal…is total, utter apathy for all things Mormon. I have a ways to go yet.
I think mom3 is so correct. And I completely understand her OP. Yes. I get it. I’ve often compared my feelings about the church to those of Mormon and Moroni. I simple lost hope in my people. I lament that the mormon church is not as true as the people who belong to it. Once the church takes away the MIddle Way, which does happen to some of us, the only defense left against pain, frustration and anger, is apathy.
I get this. I’ve decided that I need to pilot an honest middle-way. I was having a late-night big mac with the branch president this evening (it’s becoming a tradition – we hang out and chat after PEC once a month).
I’d asked what he thought of what had been put on facebook (apologising for any hassle he might get from other members complaining about it). He said that while he agreed in part with what I said, he felt my reaction had been a little excessive. He pointed out that just because you feel a certain way, you don’t always have to voice it. Sometimes, for example, you wife might look tired and bedraggled but that doesn’t mean you have to tell her so.
He’s a good friend and I take his feedback openly. I told him that I accepted what he was saying but was trying to pilot/test an approach that was sustainable. I acknowledged that, on reflection, monologues on facebook are probably not the best communication channel. You can’t control how it’s received. I said that despite all that, I couldn’t continue to pretend and would only feel comfortable teaching/saying things that I genuinely believed, which was why I was appreciating being able to teach gospel principles through a lens that works for me. He told me that he was hearing only positive feedback from the GP lesson, so told me to go ahead with whatever test I was doing.
It’s a shame that reactions to “being honest” are sometimes met with love and support and other times met with suspicion and hostility. I’m sorry you drew the short straw cwald.
Cwald, I totally understood what you meant as well. I don’t know if apathy is ever possible for me, maybe though? When I try to be “apathetic” I tend to just eat more and watch WAY TOO much TV and numb my brain.. wait … maybe I AM apathetic after all.. haha Mackay wrote
Quote:
(And yes cwald, like a dog returning to his vomit, I started posting on MDDB again. I’m sorry)😆 😆 Thanks for the awesome image. hahaha
I agree that it isn’t fair that the same experiences are met in such different ways and that Cwald got the short end… paving the way for the rest of us to some degree. I hope in the future we will be allowed to express out opinions/doubts/beliefs/fears comfortably in church and among church members.
Heber13 wrote
Quote:Its great when you embrace the diversity of thought and perspective, despite not being taught to do so. Its liberating. I think it helps me feel closer to God.
Love it. So very true to me. I feel closest to God when I am talking, listening to others perspectives.. and even debating (in a way) about God. (When I say debating I mean going back and forth on ideas but equally respecting each others ideas.
“MDDB…like a dog returning to it’s vomit. “ StayLDS quote of the week.
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