Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Moroni

[Anonymous]

I have been trying to put into words all day what this article will mean to the thousands of YW/women that will be taught from it. Beyond the modesty issue of being responsible for men’s thoughts yet again, now abused women “attracted” the man based on her dress and worthiness? How if you are a licked cup cake there realy is no hope for you finding a priesthood holder that will want to take you to the temple regardless of the atonement. How men have been guven yet another example that it realy is women’s responsibility to prevent men from having “unclean thoughts”. The fact that the top choose this article to be published in the ensign puts the stamp of approval from the prophet for most TBMs which means the “thinking is done”. Is there any hope for healthy sexual development in the church? It would seem NO. Poor guys (and women) with the “self abuse” guilt and women constantly being told that they are responsible not only for themselves but also for the virtue of all of the men around them. I always held onto the hope that things will change for the better in the church regarding these issues but now I am realizing that it is a fools hope. How do we cling to the middle when there is no choice given but extremes? Mckay11 thank you for trying to fight this because I have begun to despair that there is no hope for the culture to change on these matters.

[Anonymous]

Apathy? Who cares?

I’m glad MacKay mentioned the ARP, it is one of the best things the church does along with the Employment service.

I wonder what a psychoanalyst would make of some of these talks, or BKP’s? The emphasis and attitude towards sex surely reveals much about the man giving the speech, without meaning to.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Curtis – for the most part I see life that way, but my local area seems to be moving toward the more militant style and it saddens me. I see certain shifts and have hope in time that a more Christ/Universal voice will win. This week just happened to be a week like no other. I made it through General Conference better than this week. It is still the religion of my heart. If I did walk I don’t think I would try to replace it. I just miss it’s glorious possibilities. I see it and hear it, and can pluck out it’s potential in church leadership. It’s just not the prevailing one right now.

Bad, bad, bad, bad week all the way around. I live in a brutal area. I love how you said it is the religion of your heart. I feel that as well.

It is difficult to read and research, ponder and feel like I can handle things and turn around and need to start all over every. single. Sunday. Or not just Sunday, the “love bombing” is worse than the Sundays.

Thanks for this thread. If anything, I don’t feel alone.

[Anonymous]

I have not finished growing through this experience and likely won’t for a while. But I wanted to share a couple of things this has taught me.

Number 1 – I lean too much on the other guy.

I’d never seen it before, now it’s clear. Through out this amazing faith transition, I have looked for other voices to validate or support my feelings. I don’t think this is bad, but it may have become to much of a crutch. What began as a tool to help my hurt heart has now become one of those electronic shopping carts. I sit, I don’t move, I glide around. The reason this is so vital here and now, is that no where in LDS writing or speaking (I am looking at top brass talks, and books) is there any opposition to Callister’s point of view.

You see I can find spoken words by Chieko Okazaki about Same Sex Attraction, and how we are to love them, I can point to the Mormon and Gays site and counter Elder Oaks with his own words. I can love the Book of Mormon my way, because of a line by Elder Jeffrey Holland in the PBS documentary. There is nothing I can point to for Callister’s work.

This angered me, even more than his words, that anger taught me what the problem was – Leaning on the Other Guy. I don’t agree with Callister and it’s up to me to honor myself.

Number 2 – More and more the verse “The Worth of Souls is Great In The Site of God” is becoming my banner. I am getting h****fire mad that souls are the last thing we think of as a culture. I am seriously desirous to rent my coat, hoist it on a sword, ride around with held high and claim – For all the Souls Valued By God.

Number 3 – LDS Youth are awesome. I look at the youth and young adults around my ward and stake and they are cute, attractive, smart, driven, responsible, wonderful. This is the message we should send. Thank you for giving your all for our expectations. Thank you for living our dream, wearing our clothes, completing our personal progress, and serving our missions. Thanks for coming to earth.

I know they aren’t perfect, I don’t want them to get swollen heads, but seriously, if Callister has a problem he should ask to address Victoria Secret, or television broadcast stations. If that’s your problem, go talk to the problem, leave our hard working, mortal teens and youth alone. They need love, cheering, and chances.

Okay, stopping. I swear there is a rational woman underneath all of this somewhere. I hope she returns soon. For everyone’s sake.

[Anonymous]

Curtis wrote:

nibbler, my issue is that he consistently mis-interprets scriptures to make points that are ultra-conservative in content. I don’t see him as toeing the party line; I see him as trying to drag the line tighter in any way possible.

I guess that’s what I feel represents the party line. Draw the unequivocal line and contrast it against the evil, shifting influences of the world. Draw it tighter and tighter as the world moves away from the line in order to call attention to it. Again, the concepts presented in the article weren’t new to me, I had heard them all before and I can imagine many TBMs applauding them being delineated so clearly again. Even in the rebuttal article from the other thread they made a comment:

Quote:

This article successfully sets us back about 35 years.

Which I’m sure Callister and many other TBMs would view as a compliment. We have remained steadfast and immovable from the buffets of the world for 35 years.

I guess it’s nice that the article has opened these ideas up to being scrutinized but I won’t pretend like Callister is standing alone in espousing them. After all, it was approved to be in the Ensign and I understand that is a difficult process.

Side note: About a year or so ago I remember council making the rounds that LDS young women should ask their dates on the first date whether they have ever viewed pornography. The council was that if they had or if they hesitated in answering the young man wasn’t worthy of the young woman’s time. I’m not making that up, and I think that council was worse than most of the points extracted from Callister’s article… but that wasn’t in the Ensign. It certainly made the rounds though.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Once upon a time, years ago, I was accused by family members of being luke warm. That really bothered me….I was so far from luke warm…I don’t know if anyone can really understand just how far from lukewarm I was. I took the church very serious and was raging hot to find the answers and the truth and a middle way to remain Mormon. Hot. Very hot. There was no luke warm to be had in my spiritual journey at that time.

Tangent time. I read this in the book Misunderstanding Scripture Through Western Eyes. The hot / lukewarm / cold thing was written in the city of Laodicea which had no water sources. The only access to water was piped in via aqueduct: cold spring water from Colassae and hot spring water from Hierapolis. By the time the water arrived, it had often lost its properties that made it good. The hot (valued for its mineral content and healing properties) was lukewarm; the cold (which should have been refreshing and thirst quenching) was likewise lukewarm. So it’s kind of a “salt has lost its savor” admonishment. We sometimes misinterpret it to mean it’s better to be hot or cold (passionately for or against) than to be passive, but it’s really more about having lost our unique, remarkable qualities.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Anonymous]

Exactly, Hawk. That is another one of my pet peeves about scriptural misinterpretation.

[Anonymous]

mackay11 wrote:

Found Elder Callister’s article (p.44):

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

I tried to read the article with an open mind:

Quote:

So it is with God our Father—He needs to speak only once on the issue of morality, and that one declaration trumps all the opinions of the lower courts, whether uttered by psycholo­gists, counselors, politicians, friends, par­ents, or would­be moralists of the day.

I bet there are hundreds of thousands of men of African descent that are grateful this isn’t actually true.

Also, from the article:

Quote:

Some would have us believe that the Church’s stand against same gender physical relationships is a temporary policy and not an eternal doctrine. Such a belief would be at odds with the scriptures, with the words of modern prophets, and with the plan of salvation

Again, I bet there are hundreds of thousands of men of African descent that are grateful that what was “at odds with the scriptures, with the words of modern prophets, and with the plan of salvation” is no longer the case.

Just my $0.02.

[Anonymous]

Pretty cool, I never heard that before. Thanks for the tangent.

[Anonymous]

Elder Callister’s article (p.44):

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

Quote:

So it is with God our Father—He needs to speak only once on the issue of morality, and that one declaration trumps all the opinions of the lower courts, whether uttered by psycholo­gists, counselors, politicians, friends, par­ents, or would­be moralists of the day.

The problem is deciding what “God the Father” said and through whom he said it. Pres. Monson, one of the Twelve, Elder Callister at BYU-I? There are a lot of people convinced that it is from God’s mouth to their ear and the results run anywhere from the Martin handcart company to proposition 8 to the good things that come from church hospitals and education in the early days of the church in the west. It seems to me that the more firmly a person believes he speaks for God Almighty, the more nervous we should be.

[Anonymous]

Nibbler said:

Quote:

Which I’m sure Callister and many other TBMs would view as a compliment. We have remained steadfast and immovable from the buffets of the world for 35 years.

I guess it’s nice that the article has opened these ideas up to being scrutinized but I won’t pretend like Callister is standing alone in espousing them. After all, it was approved to be in the Ensign and I understand that is a difficult process.

Side note: About a year or so ago I remember council making the rounds that LDS young women should ask their dates on the first date whether they have ever viewed pornography. The council was that if they had or if they hesitated in answering the young man wasn’t worthy of the young woman’s time. I’m not making that up, and I think that council was worse than most of the points extracted from Callister’s article… but that wasn’t in the Ensign. It certainly made the rounds though.

Nibbler, I actually have to agree, I don’t think this is anything new. I haven’t heard anything teaching different than this at church. I guess it has been several years since I have been in the Y/W’s presidency, but now that I think about it this is exactly what was taught. I do think that the young women get way less talk about masturbation and pornography… more about modesty and helping the y/m stay mission worthy. It seems in general that people that I associate with are getting a healthier view regarding sex . But I suppose your are right, this isn’t anything new coming from the headquarters. I guess I was hoping. And to be honest, there aren’t very many things that scare me more about raising kids in this religion more than this. I just hope that my input as a parent will outweigh that which is taught. I have to say that the WORST part of the article for me was that it totally dismisses what parents say… WHAT &^%&^!!!

Mom3, I don’t think you sounded irrational at all. And I have to agree.

Quote:

More and more the verse “The Worth of Souls is Great In The Site of God” is becoming my banner. I am getting h****fire mad that souls are the last thing we think of as a culture. I am seriously desirous to rent my coat, hoist it on a sword, ride around with held high and claim – For all the Souls Valued By God.

. Can I be there when you do this?

[Author]

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