Fiona Givens — we focus on the prophet and not Christ

[Anonymous]

I agree, DJ. And I don’t think it is to blame the victim. People in the church perpetuate false gospel ideas in efforts to zealously live their faith. It has been taught to me. I just no longer see it that way. And it frees me to see it differently.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

FaithfulSkeptic wrote:

Rob, I think you meant to say that indirectly this message also says to NOT keep your eye on the Prophet or the brethren, right?

Nope. I was talking about it exactly as is.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I was thinking you were talking about the quote from Fiona Givens. Now I get it!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Anonymous]

I think the church often paints it completely 100% not “either or”….they teach that IF you follow the prophet, you are ALWAYS following Christ,…because the prophet will never teach anything contrary. So, they give the impression the prophet and Christ are … well,…basically one.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

I think the church often paints it completely 100% not “either or”….they teach that IF you follow the prophet, you are ALWAYS following Christ,…because the prophet will never teach anything contrary. So, they give the impression the prophet and Christ are … well,…basically one.

This brings us back to our age old discussion here. What is the church? Is it the church that teaches these things? Is it doctrine?

In my own mind (as one who was angry at God and at the church for some time) I believe it’s more people teaching these things – people that just happen to be Mormons and profess these things as Mormon belief. A major part of transitioning my faith out of faith crisis was letting go of the all or nothing approach. In reality it’s not all or nothing and no definition of the church teaches otherwise. We can infer or conclude that, but that is not necessarily the foregone conclusion. Consider the TR questions, for instance. We are not asked about the BoM, polygamy, or even prayer. You can believe the prophet and Christ are essentially one if you want to – but you don’t have to and you generally won’t penalized for doing so.

Truth is I really don’t know what the church is. Is it the top leadership? Is it all of us together (which is what I think Fiona believes)? Is it the buildings and temples? Is it the collective Standard Works? Is it the handbooks? Is it the doctrine and traditions? Is it a combination of these things or something else altogether? To keep my sanity and allow my finite brain to wrap around most of the stuff, I go with a very vague definition that doesn’t really fit into any of the above and that’s why I focus on the gospel. I do know what the gospel is, and it also doesn’t teach an all or nothing approach.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

You can believe the prophet and Christ are essentially one if you want to – but you don’t have to and you generally won’t penalized for doing so.

I agree,…

But I also think the top leadership knows that there are vast LDS members who believe that the prophet and Christ are one,…and they, the leadership, do nothing to correct this misconception.

My question is is why don’t they? I have been baffled by that question for over a decade….WHY DOESN’T THE LEADERSHIP CORRECT THIS?

Some have tiptoed around it,…but you have talks like: “We can’t lead you astray”,…and the 14 points being resurrected in conference, etc. Oaks and others saying you should never talk bad, even if it is true…and we will never apologize,..it all plays into the same dilemma.

[Anonymous]

Some people need that surety. Some people need to hold someone up as a mouthpiece of god that they can both see and hear. It can give people more confidence and comfort than a god to which there is only an intangible connection.

Rob4Hope wrote:

But I also think the top leadership knows that there are vast LDS members who believe that the prophet and Christ are one,…and they, the leadership, do nothing to correct this misconception.

My question is is why don’t they? I have been baffled by that question for over a decade….WHY DOESN’T THE LEADERSHIP CORRECT THIS?

Top leadership comes from the pool of general membership of the church. Maybe the top leadership are a part of the vast number of LDS members who believe the traditional interpretation of “whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” I’m sure they believe that they are speaking for god. It’s their faith, logic doesn’t always apply to matters of faith.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Some people need that surety. Some people need to hold someone up as a mouthpiece of god that they can both see and hear. It can give people more confidence and comfort than a god to which there is only an intangible connection.

This is the only conclusion I have been able to arrive at.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

I think the church often paints it completely 100% not “either or”….they teach that IF you follow the prophet, you are ALWAYS following Christ,…because the prophet will never teach anything contrary. So, they give the impression the prophet and Christ are … well,…basically one.

I think this is a very important realization. When you can be aware of how you have viewed it and that you feel the church was teaching that…it then becomes something defined that you can then explore if you agree with that or disagree.

For many years, I don’t think I inspected that. I just accepted it as taught. I trusted the church and was inspired by the teachings.

Perhaps that strengthened me to the point I was able to stop and start to check my assumptions…so I could then move forward.

It is like the old saying goes:

Quote:

We don’t know who it was that discovered water, but we know it wasn’t fish.

Because fish are completely immersed in it, they live unaware of it’s existence. Similarly, when a conduct is normalized by a dominant culture, it becomes invisible.

I believe many gospel teachings came in to the church as metaphorical or symbolic teachings, parables and the like that Jesus taught. But the culture adopted them and normalized them and generations began to take them as fact and literal history, and that was perpetuated.

Why did the church not correct it?

1) The ones teaching are immersed in it, and it became invisible.

2) The teachings work for people, as nibbler said. So it gets perpetuated. It is fulfilling it’s purpose to teach people the gospel.

3) Those that become aware of it, don’t have another narrative to replace it with. It isn’t really wrong or dishonest to believe the story of the flood…it is just a story with a purpose to continue to teach principles that help people come closer to God.

It sounds like what you want, Rob, is the church to make the statement “It is not literal. It is all metaphorical and must be taken that way.” Then…it would be easier for the culture to be aware of it and accept it.

I think there are 2 reasons that won’t happen:

1) There is a mix of metaphor and fact. Some stuff did happen physically in this world, and some stuff was spiritual not of this world. One broad brush doesn’t cover all things.

2) It doesn’t matter to me. I have made up my mind what I believe and continue to learn being open to more light and knowledge. I don’t have to wait for the church to admit, apologize, correct, or teach anything I want them to. As soon as I see the “water” as it is…I let myself believe it…and I let the other fish swim. The church doesn’t correct it because it doesn’t need to. It is not a historical institution with a mission to get all facts correct. It is an organization to teach the gospel and bring people to God. That is what it is focused on, whether you are aware of “water” or not.

I will say, however, I believe the tones and the stories will be more accurately understood and aware by church members more and more. The ship turns slowly, but eventually, they cannot deny truths. The keep doing that. The past is full of way too slow corrections…but corrections nonetheless when people are ready for it.

The Internet has brought to light things that were previously invisible. It can no longer be ignored by the dominant culture. It simply can’t. It will change, but with declarations from prophets and new enlightened scripture and teachings, not by apologies and repentance, whether we like that approach or not.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

It sounds like what you want, Rob, is the church to make the statement “It is not literal. It is all metaphorical and must be taken that way.” Then…it would be easier for the culture to be aware of it and accept it.

Once I can get all the way passed the “pissed” stage,…perhaps I will be able to grapple with this. When things have been taught literally to me, it caused damage. Letting go of that damage when there is no intent (or even desire) for those who caused the damage to at least say: “sorry for hurting you”…well, that takes a different type of faith. It requires me to let go and forgive them FOR MY SAKE–not for theirs. It also places me in a position where burned once, shame on them…burned twice, shame on me. So my trust in those men has been severely damaged.

Heber13 wrote:

I think there are 2 reasons that won’t happen:

2) It doesn’t matter to me. I have made up my mind what I believe and continue to learn being open to more light and knowledge. I don’t have to wait for the church to admit, apologize, correct, or teach anything I want them to. As soon as I see the “water” as it is…I let myself believe it…and I let the other fish swim. The church doesn’t correct it because it doesn’t need to. It is not a historical institution with a mission to get all facts correct. It is an organization to teach the gospel and bring people to God. That is what it is focused on, whether you are aware of “water” or not.

You’ve moved more to stage 5. I waffle between having one foot there and one in stage 4,..and I teeter. Sometimes I get further along, and sometimes I backslide. I’m hopeful…i’m hopeful. I don’t want to throw everything away, but agnosticism, even as a choice, has looked appealing–AND I CAN UNDERSTAND IN A LARGE WAY why some are at that point.

Heber13 wrote:

I will say, however, I believe the tones and the stories will be more accurately understood and aware by church members more and more. The ship turns slowly, but eventually, they cannot deny truths. The keep doing that. The past is full of way too slow corrections…but corrections nonetheless when people are ready for it.

The Internet has brought to light things that were previously invisible. It can no longer be ignored by the dominant culture. It simply can’t. It will change, but with declarations from prophets and new enlightened scripture and teachings, not by apologies and repentance, whether we like that approach or not.

I actually don’t like that approach, but I think it is inevitable as you suggest.

Its like BRM saying: “Forget everything I said about that topic [priesthood ban]…I was proceeding with the light and knowledge I had at the time…Now the Lord has spoken….” What a clever way to hold oneself exempt from damage done by being a sledge-hammer with a policy, believed to be revelation from God, that hurt generations of people. I would feel better about this whole turn-around from BRM (and I use him as an example) had he been a little more humble about the whole thing and sensative to the damage done,…but he was bold and teflon. He was wrong,..but it wasn’t his fault, it was GOD’S for not revealing earlier or more clearly.

I suppose if I am a doctor and I work in the farm killing chickens and get blood and guts all over my hands, and then I go deliver a baby with those dirty hands and infect and kill the mother and child, I could simply say: “Well, I proceeded on the best knowledge I had at the time…BUT LETS NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DAMAGE WAS DONE…NO…LETS JUST PROCEED FORWARD AS IF NOTHING HAS HAPPENED!”… Well, I have a problem with that. I think that leaders handle things like this, and it bothers me. The lack of sympathy to the pain caused by policies, teachings, and so forth begs the question of “weeping with those who weep”.

“If ye have not charity, ye are nothing”…Hunh,…I wonder who said that?

Getting that foot out of stage 4 when this type of thing happen,…its been difficult for me….

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

My question is is why don’t they? I have been baffled by that question for over a decade….WHY DOESN’T THE LEADERSHIP CORRECT THIS?

Recently, at a fireside, oaks told the attendees that he’s never had a miraculous visitation of any sort, and that he doesn’t know of anybody on the Q12 who has. He said his testimony came softly and subtler, like dust on a windowsill. Where you look one day and it’s there.

Then at another fireside (Boise Rescue) , he hammered home their apolistic authority, in response to losing some membership to Denver Snuffer.

I find it interesting that they can be so bold with things like the recent policy change… they can speak so confidently about their decision: “this is how Jesus wants us to feed his sheep”, with no reservation or backdoor just in case they misinterpreted that subtle dust falling incorrectly.

In short, they are starting to let the cat out of the bag a little, but it seems like they’re still gripping tightly with all the attacking they’re enduring.

[Anonymous]

marty wrote:

Rob4Hope wrote:

My question is is why don’t they? I have been baffled by that question for over a decade….WHY DOESN’T THE LEADERSHIP CORRECT THIS?

Recently, at a fireside, oaks told the attendees that he’s never had a miraculous visitation of any sort, and that he doesn’t know of anybody on the Q12 who has. He said his testimony came softly and subtler, like dust on a windowsill. Where you look one day and it’s there.

Then at another fireside (Boise Rescue) , he hammered home their apolistic authority, in response to losing some membership to Denver Snuffer.

I find it interesting that they can be so bold with things like the recent policy change… they can speak so confidently about their decision: “this is how Jesus wants us to feed his sheep”, with no reservation or backdoor just in case they misinterpreted that subtle dust falling incorrectly.

In short, they are starting to let the cat out of the bag a little, but it seems like they’re still gripping tightly with all the attacking they’re enduring.

Marty,..this is fascinating. Their testimony comes so soft it is like dust on a windowsill, and they are absolutely sure they understand completely, interpret completely, and know the source completely for that revelation?

This seems so fraught with potential mis-communication. If I think about this long enough, it is disturbing. These people make decisions that, whether we want to admit it or not, affect people’s lives. I hope they are accurate with what they teach because the affects are rather large, especially when they hammer it with “apostolic” authority as you mentioned….

[Anonymous]

Right now, it feels like “one step forward, one step back”.

It is hard to tell if the steps are the same size or if it is going in a direction…I like Marty’s dews on the windowsill analogy.

Rob4Hope wrote:

Getting that foot out of stage 4 when this type of thing happen,…its been difficult for me….

you’re pretty self-aware. That’s a compliment. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

FWIW, and from what I know of you both, I don’t think you are in fully in stage 4, Rob, and I don’t think Heber is fully in stage 5. I don’t think there are hard and clear lines between the stages, and I’m not fully one or the other either – but you do have lots of stage 3 left in you Rob.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

FWIW, and from what I know of you both, I don’t think you are in fully in stage 4, Rob, and I don’t think Heber is fully in stage 5. I don’t think there are hard and clear lines between the stages, and I’m not fully one or the other either – but you do have lots of stage 3 left in you Rob.

Probably. I don’t really know (and it doesn’t matter perse)…just cuz it hurts so damn bad. And whatever stage I’m in…that’s where I am. Maybe its more like one foot in stage 3 and one in stage 4…

OH…crap. That is a depressing thought…..

((The ibuprofen no longer works…time for something harder….I know…Dr. Pepper!!!!!))

[Anonymous]

I imagine it’s hard if not impossible for a person to rise up through the ranks if they don’t exhibit a lot of self confidence. Alpha males aren’t typically known for expressing self doubt.

Rob4Hope wrote:

Letting go of that damage when there is no intent (or even desire) for those who caused the damage to at least say: “sorry for hurting you”…well, that takes a different type of faith.

While we’re talking about intent and desire… do you believe that the leaders of the church intend to hurt people by their teachings? I get the sense that they believe their teachings may cause some people temporal discomfort but ultimately the teachings will bring them eternal happiness. I believe that’s their perspective. I can understand their unapologetic tone, to them they are defending what they believe will bring people happiness in the long run. Whether or not they are correct is irrelevant, they believe they are correct.

Rob4Hope wrote:

It requires me to let go and forgive them FOR MY SAKE–not for theirs.

I think that’s an important realization. I feel a large part of forgiveness is letting go of the things that weigh us down. An apology from someone can help facilitate that process but I don’t want to let what someone else does or doesn’t do damn up the forgiveness process for me.

I’m certainly no expert on forgiveness. I’ve been damaged by someone, something that has had a lasting impact in my life, and in this case I know I’ll never, ever get an apology. Sometimes people are completely blind to what they do and no amount of arguing, coercion, or crying will ever get them to see the damage they’ve caused. What do you do in that circumstance? Continue the fight? Move on? I know which path seems more cathartic but…

I also believe accountability has it’s limits for everyone. For example, we don’t hold a 5 year old to the same accountability standards as we do an adult. We don’t hold someone with developmental disabilities to the same standards as we do most other people… and yet we all fall somewhere in the spectrum of having a developmental disability, it’s just that some disabilities are more visible than others.

For me these thoughts set up an unsettling situation. It’s hard to forgive in those situations; where you feel like a person that has perpetrated a great injustice against you can’t (or won’t) be held accountable. Maybe it’s not even about justice, maybe it’s only about being validated by the people that have caused the harm. It’s always harder when the damage is still being done. Maybe it’s a desire for the injustice to cease, which is only natural and completely justified. The issue is that what someone else does or doesn’t do is outside our control, the question is how do we move forward for our own sake?

Maybe one solution would be to start viewing DHO, BRM, etc., etc. as you would a 5 year old.

“Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” applies to everyone.

Rob4Hope wrote:

And whatever stage I’m in…that’s where I am.

:thumbup:

It’s not a contest.

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