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DarkJedi wrote:
FWIW, and from what I know of you both, I don’t think you are in fully in stage 4, Rob, and I don’t think Heber is fully in stage 5. I don’t think there are hard and clear lines between the stages, and I’m not fully one or the other either – but you do have lots of stage 3 left in you Rob.
well said:thumbup: nibbler wrote:I can understand their unapologetic tone, to them they are defending what they believe will bring people happiness in the long run. Whether or not they are correct is irrelevant, they
believethey are correct.
This is true,…and it comes across as arrogant.
Have a good story about this. In the mission field the “APs” came around to teach us newbies “how its done”…out there tracting. The senior AP did the door approach with me there, and the lady we were talking to was trying to be polite, but this missionary pushed it to the point of being extremely offensive to this poor and intimidated woman. I was rather shocked by his intensity and “committment”.
After we finished, he was clear that we are working to save the souls of these people, and so we have no room to apologize or ever feel like we have no right to be their. After all, “without the gospel we teach, they will be lost’. That was what he communicated to me.
It was at that point I realized that in the church, often, the devils methods of control can be justified in the name of “saving souls”.
Nibbler,…i think there is a balance. I think that people need to be loved, warmed, welcomed, and invited. But, I do see that many, including leaders, believe they are justified because they
believethey are correct, and that what they teach will do the greatest good in the long run. I disagree. I don’t think the ends ever justify the means. Sorry…no resonate here. (and FWIW,…I know this was not what you were saying anyway…just incidental comment).
That’s the beauty of it; it’s okay to disagree. That beats the “make it work” option from before a faith crisis. I’m also not out to make excuses, I’m only tossing things over the fence, trying to guess potential motives for why people do the things they do. Sometimes that helps me forgive others… trying to live inside their heads a little.
Like Heber13 mentioned in his post.
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see
Fish in the water, all we are is fish in the water
OK…so we are off track a little on this thread….but I have a question that comes up. Do the GAs have a different set of rules than the rest of us?
This should be a different thread. disregards,…its just my mind chattering…..
Rob4Hope wrote:Do the GAs have a different set of rules than the rest of us?
Nope.
They have different circumstances, different loyalties, and different authority. But the rules stay the same.
The key is to understand the rules.
First, this is a serious issue in the Church, but it is not universal – and it absolutely is not that we ignore or reject Christ. “The Church” teaches everything imaginable – and so do individual church leaders. Right now, we have a spectrum ranging from Elder Bednar and (on some things) Pres. Nelson to Pres. Uchtdorf and Elder Renlund.
Not one of the FP or Q12 believe they teach people not to follow Christ – and every one of them is correct. They see it as a both/and rather than an either/or. The real issue is the preponderance of focus, and some are more justice/obedience focused, while others are more mercy/effort focused.
I think your issue, Rob, is that you struggle to let go of the either/or view. That is typical of Stage 3. Stage 4 is more neither/nor. Stage 5 is more both/and. That is simplistic, but it is a decent outline.
Also, it is important to point out that our very theology does not put Chriat in the same position that he holds in many other Chrisitan religions, since we teach of a God who is subject to The Most High God, His and Our Father. We also focus more on commandments in our preaching than many others. That is not a bad thing, imo, in and of itself – but it does play into how often we talk of Christ compared to other Christians and can cloud the issue significantly.
I think we have become more like ancient Judaism and the Catholic Church over time, but I also think we have been moving slowly but steadily away from our most extreme time for the past couple of decades – specific issues notwithstanding.
Rob4Hope wrote:Probably. I don’t really know (and it doesn’t matter perse)…just cuz it hurts so damn bad.
Rob – I like you, man. And I relate to your frustration. We’re probably the stereotypical angry-stage-4 guys… but like you said… “whatever”. Just be with it.
My frustration with Church Headquarters is so great that at times it consumes my life. I was actually doing okay until the recent policy change, and I had the first experience where I felt complete and utter contempt. I hate that feeling. I don’t want to be bitter and cynical. I want to be understanding and patient, and try to understand their worldview. After that, I stopped paying tithing (at least on my half).
Do I think the brethren wake up in the morning and plan ways to antagonize “the gays”?? No. I’ll bet that most of them are infinitely kind, generous, and loving. I’ll bet that they would weep to hear the sorrow experienced by someone who feels alienated by the Church.
So what’s their problem? From my perspective, it starts with one simple thing:
THEY NEVER APOLOGIZE. Ever. They’ve never apologized for Mountain Meadow Massacre… let that sink in for a minute. We murdered 100 people in cold blood, and our leaders have never stood up and said we were sorry. And it just goes on from there. I’m talking about things that everybody agrees were wrong, like expelling gay people from BYU, sealing a black woman to Joseph Smith as a servant, denying black people entrance to the Temple, etc. No apology given, and in fact, our leaders proudly state that the Church doesn’t offer apologies. ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY IS ON THE PERSON WHO WAS HURT. The Church has an abysmal track record of victim blaming and shirking responsibility for words and actions, and it happens to this very day. Not two weeks ago, Elder Oaks issued a statement regarding gay suicides in the Church. Here’s his exact quote: “There are other cases where people have taken their own lives and blamed a church–my church–or a government, or somebody else for their taking their own lives”. If you feel inspired or called to fight against homosexuality, fine. But let’s not pretend that your preaching, and the way it’s embraced by the Church members who look to you… let’s not pretend that the dots don’t connect. It’s insulting.
Sorry. I don’t want to drag people down. I appreciate this as a place I can vent, but I’ll regroup and try to come back a little more positive.
DarkJedi wrote:A major part of transitioning my faith out of faith crisis was letting go of the all or nothing approach.
How do you do this? I feel like I’m stuck in stage 3 or 4 and I’m bitter and angry. I want to move on (or else just stop trying because it hurts so much), but I don’t know how.
Marty wrote:Rob – I like you, man. And I relate to your frustration. We’re probably the stereotypical angry-stage-4 guys… but like you said… “whatever”. Just be with it.
My frustration with Church Headquarters is so great that at times it consumes my life. I was actually doing okay until the recent policy change, and I had the first experience where I felt complete and utter contempt. I hate that feeling. I don’t want to be bitter and cynical. I want to be understanding and patient, and try to understand their worldview. After that, I stopped paying tithing (at least on my half).
Do I think the brethren wake up in the morning and plan ways to antagonize “the gays”?? No. I’ll bet that most of them are infinitely kind, generous, and loving. I’ll bet that they would weep to hear the sorrow experienced by someone who feels alienated by the Church.
I guess I’m an angry stage 4 guy too and “the policy” really threw me. I hate being bitter and cynical, but that’s where I’m at. How do I get past this?
marty wrote:THEY NEVER APOLOGIZE. Ever. They’ve never apologized for Mountain Meadow Massacre… let that sink in for a minute. We murdered 100 people in cold blood, and our leaders have never stood up and said we were sorry.
We had a good discussion about this on a previous thread.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6460&hilit=+mountain+meadows+documentary Basically that the church mostly apologized but did it in carefully guarded language chosen to protect itself from admitting guilt, culpability, or liability.
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